Speaker 2 (00:00.49)
So fundamentals again, health savings account is the very best tax break that a physician has. mean, tax deduction for putting the money in, okay, tax free growth and no taxes on qualified withdrawals. That's just about as good as it's gonna get.
Welcome to the Physician Family Financial Advisors podcast, where physician moms and dads like you can turn today's worries about taxes and investing into all the money you need for retirement in college. Hello, physician moms and dads. I'm Nate Renneke, certified financial planner and primary advisor.
And I'm Ben Utley, certified financial planner and service team leader here at Physician Family. So Nate, you know, we just had the holidays and I recently took the lights down off my house and I didn't get on a ladder. It was just cool. Because I have a new house. It's all one story, same size as the last one, but the last one had two stories. And when we moved to this house, I told my wife, said, I'm not getting on ladders. I hear about too many people falling off ladders. And even though this house has an attic, we decided to
to take the stuff out of the old attic and not put it in the new attic because we have a garage. So, you know, we had probably 240 square feet of dry storage in the last attic and we had, you know, those plastic totes that are about, I don't know, they're a foot and a half long, about a foot wide and about a foot and a half deep. plastic and you get them to store all kinds of stuff in. You get them at like Target or Costco, that kind of place. Well,
We had about 20.
Speaker 2 (01:42.272)
of those plastic tubs full of stuff and that stuff was memorabilia mostly from my kids and their lives and we had we had dolls and we had stuffed animals and we had like little onesies that my kids wore and we had some some plastic rain boots that were that were shaped like ladybugs and I mean it just went on and on and on all the great stuff that we had in there. We had all kinds of papers, metals,
trophies, things that the kids had won. But there was also a bunch of stuff in there that the kids were kind of done with that we didn't want to store. so over the course of two days, the four of us sat down on the floor and we went through these boxes like one item at a time. And it was like this huge stroll down memory lane of the last 20 years of our lives with the kids. And I got to say it was it was magical. Really, it was almost like watching a home video.
Of everything that had happened over the last two decades. And of course my kids are in college now, right? So it was, it was fun to savor those memories just going through. so the thing that struck me about it is the, the, the belongings that they valued, the things that they wanted to keep had no financial value. Right? I mean, uh, it was, it was papers, you know, it was notes that they had written to mom or notes that mom had written to them.
It was pictures of, family and friends. was, small animals, stuffed animals, a few toys, some ceramics, some handmade stuff that they had picked up and a few things that we had picked up on vacations, but nothing of any value that is financial, so to speak. The thing that really hit me about this is.
Many of those things represented experiences that they had had, and it brought a full circle that the, things that make memories, the things that cause us to be able to reconnect with the good times in our lives, particularly with our families, our experiences, it's, it's not stuff, right? And we bought them some expensive stuff over time. You know, iPhones, iPads, that kind of stuff. none of that was in there. Yeah. No electronics.
Speaker 2 (04:09.814)
no high-end art, no expensive clothing even. It was just things that reminded them of time that we'd spent together.
Yeah, I there's one thing that's still in Mateo's room. Who's my six year old that I need to take away from him at some point. But he has we went to Disneyland a couple years ago and it's the only thing he has from Disneyland still like the toys, the crappy toys they buy or whatever that's all thrown away. He has one thing which is an old like or looks old because he's used it so much broken down like holes in it ripped apart a map of Disneyland.
Wow. And he held in his bed for probably three weeks after we got home. Wow. Yeah, I want to say that, but he still wants it.
We had a little Disney memorabilia in our pile too. You know, not a lot of it because we only went to two parks for half day apiece. Yeah. The thing that I found kind of most interesting, like the biggest item that one of my daughters kept was this bunny whose name bunny and bunny is like, geez, bunny's got ears that the wingspan is like four feet. Yeah. And bunny sits like two or three, two or three feet tall. And there's no way bunny would fit in a box to go with the garage. So we took bunny and put bunny in the, in the guest room.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:28.078)
Yeah, yeah well that's That's it's funny because when I go to Costco, I'm like people still buying these totes They always have these totes. So it's like those are the things that are in my garage too. Everything else gets kind of thrown out
Yeah, exactly. you know, this, as I was going through it, it kind of made me think like, what would happen if we hadn't saved these things? And it also made me think what would happen if we had a house fire? Yeah. Right. Like what, what's the one thing I would say or how would I feel about losing these things? And it, and it occurred to me that, you know, I, thing we still have is we have our relationship. have each other, you know, that's the thing that we've invested in, in our family. But it also kind of is a segue into our first question today, which is about the, the recent fires that we've had.
down in Southern California. So let's get that first question going.
Yeah, it's from an oncologist in Southern California. My mom had a home that was wiped out in the Palisades fires. I want to help her get back on her feet. Is there anything special I should know here? Yeah. Well, first of all, strange, we do get questions like this in these moments. And it's hard as an advisor, because you think like,
Sometimes these people just, I'm just the money guy over here, but then you get calls about this kind of thing. And it's interesting. I don't know. Just reflecting on all the times that emergencies have happened and we get these calls and we're prepared to answer it. So we're here to answer it today. So, mean, an oncologist in Southern California, you're an established physician, you probably have an emergency fund, you know, and that doesn't have to be just for you. I mean, obviously.
Speaker 1 (07:16.942)
You don't want to be handing out your emergency fund all the time, but this is clearly a case where you can help them out with some quick, fast, large amount of cash.
Yeah, this is different than buying a house for mom and dad who can't afford it and wondering whether or not, you know, they're going to keep it or something. It's really just helping them get back on their feet, which, may be helping them buy a home or I guess it could be like tidying them over while they need a place to live, you know, maybe letting them move in with you, which could be a good thing if you, if they have grandkids, right? So it could be a time of positive memories, good time together, together with family, but certainly helping to pay bills and
You know, for some of those folks, they still to make mortgage payments on that burned off house. So maybe maybe there's going to be some relief for that with the mortgage companies.
Yeah. Yeah. I like the idea of paying bills too. It seems kind of small, but in these situations it's huge. And you know, maybe you don't have like a liquid six figures that you can save their whole situation. But a lot of times in the beginning, no amount of money feels like it can solve the problem. So you're scraping together all this cash and maybe making some short sighted choices.
about how you get the cash to them. basically, you know, if you can bring them into the house, that'd be great. If you can give them some of your emergency fund, that'd be fine. And then after that, sounds like it's a more long term planning situation where maybe you need to give them some monthly money. But there is, you know, some, I guess you could call it relief here in that this family's, the parents here, the mom, if they have a qualified
Speaker 1 (09:06.158)
retirement account. They can withdraw money from this penalty free if they're a part of this kind of disaster. So there's some essentially there's some new rules out I'll tell you what they are. Qualified individuals can withdraw $22,000 from retirement accounts without a 10 % penalty. Okay. You can also if they're still working, can employers are allowed to increase the limit on loans.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (09:36.738)
or their qualified accounts. So there are limits. the limits are small enough to where you probably couldn't buy a house with it, but there you are allowed to increase the limit to a hundred grand. and you can extend the repayment on that loan. Nice. So things like that aren't, aren't necessarily maybe the best long-term solution, but let's say this oncologist here,
couldn't trade together the money fast enough will you get a loan until you can get your parents some money?
Right. And I also have one that I was thinking of here. You know, if that oncologist has appreciated securities and is an oncologist in California, you know, they're going to pay a lot of money and capital gains if they sell those securities. But if mom and dad are in a low income tax bracket,
It would be possible for that oncologist to give appreciated shares of their securities to mom and dad and maybe mom and dad are in the 10 % capital gains tax bracket or maybe 15 instead of 20 and so giving those appreciated shares.
would allow mom and dad to pay the taxes on it instead of the physician. that there's an opportunity there. call that income shifting and they'd be in a better bracket. And so that would be kind of a tax advantaged gift to, to help out. You know, you could give your folks, I believe that the new limit is at 19,000 for a gifting. Yeah. 19,000 this year.
Speaker 1 (11:00.759)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:07.436)
I believe it is.
Uh, so that'd be 38,000 that this oncologist could give and if they're married, they could give another 38,000 to those, to that mom or parents, know, um, and that would, you know, some, some, little tax relief, you know, a little lemonade from a huge lemon.
Yeah, well, it's lemonade, but it's also like a lot of times people wouldn't think to give them stocks and tax. The tax relief is good. But even better is that you probably have money somewhere other than your bank account. And if you're going to give away money, that's a good place to do it. We do have clients in California that we may not heard from.
I hope if they're, if they do hear this, that they know they can call us so we can try to work through this. Okay. Onto the next question. This is a family medicine doctor in Washington state. The not for profit organization I work for is, was recently acquired by a for profit organization. I have student loans. I've been counting on PSLF.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:23.948)
Is this going to derail my chances of loan forgiveness? If so, what should I do? Yeah. And this was a perspective client. we don't know their entire situation yet, but it's important to say that because I'm going to, I guess with my answer. So just know that I don't know everything about them.
question.
Speaker 2 (12:46.924)
Now before we go into the details, think that I spoke with someone the other day and there was still some confusion around PSLF. This woman had like seven years worth of payments. I was certain she couldn't get PSLF. We went back and forth and she had a profound misunderstanding of how PSLF worked. And I was confident that she'd get relief and get those debts repaid in just, you know, a matter of years.
Yeah.
Just tell us about the qualifying payments the full time all that good stuff give us to give us like the basic three or four rules behind what makes PSLF doable for somebody. What do you got? What do you got to do?
Yeah, so essentially what public service loan forgiveness is, is if you serve the public. So a lot of doctors qualify for this because they work for a not-for-profit or a governmental organization. So if you serve the public, a not-for-profit or a governmental organization, if you are on an income-driven repayment plan,
And that that's step one of the confusion is what's that and yeah, there's a lot there's several of them and you Make 120 20 payments while the first of those two things are true Then you can get your balance forgiven
Speaker 2 (14:09.592)
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (14:13.307)
don't you have to be employed full-time too or something?
You have to be employed by what they consider full time. this is another, you know, there's a lot of details that go into this that are kind of gotchas. So yes, you have to be employed. Yeah. So.
And the thing is some people like, I didn't work for 10 years or I took a year off to have a baby or whatever it is, but it's 120 payments. And it doesn't say not without gaps, right? It could be 60 and then 60 or 57 and then the rest and a little bit more, you know? That's correct.
Yep. And by the way, that happens all the time. You know, just because in your situation, you decided to do something like take time off for a baby. And you think I'm making this choice. Well, a of people just lose their job for three months. They're not getting out of the SLF. So now the question that most physicians should be asking is does it benefit me? And that takes a plan.
do these plans. And I would also say that there is PSLF has been around long enough now to where if that's the only thing you need, there are people who only do student loan plans. Like they do thousands of student loan plans every year. And they're really sharp. I do it for physicians a lot. Many times physicians do fully understand it. I would venture to guess that this person you spoke with that had a misunderstanding of the program is
Speaker 1 (15:44.974)
in the weeds on what's been going on over the last few years. Yeah. And I totally understand because if you're a client of mine and you've heard me talk about this, there's times where I'm just as in the dark as they are. And the people that kind of the leading, the thought leaders in student loans about this, they're in the dark because I follow them. Yes, it is. It is frustrating to say the least. So everybody hang in there.
a moving target.
Speaker 1 (16:14.888)
And eventually we'll get some clarity on what we need to do. But if you have questions, if student loans are the reason you're making a big life choice to where you work or where you live, you need to call me. And we need to talk about that because the key here is that while you may qualify, there's a good chance you don't benefit or you don't benefit by much. So. Yeah, so this question directly, the reason I said
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (16:38.378)
our doctor friend.
Speaker 1 (16:44.398)
They're not, we don't know their full situation yet is the first thing that this person should do. So they said, you know, what should I do? My, my, my nonprofit got bought out by a for-profit. First thing they need to do is double check that information because I hear this all the time. Most of the time it's not true. Most of the time they heard something that made it seem like it was for-profits. Something strange happens where they make this assumption that it's a for-profit, but
You it's actually very difficult. There's unique rules and regulations for a for-profit buying a nonprofit. So it can happen, but most of the times that I see this, it's not the case. Okay. Okay. So, I don't know for sure for them though. that's step one. Step two is what I, my kind of preamble here is make sure that this actually benefits you before you do something big, make some big change. Just big is change in States or
even changing jobs so that your kids have changed schools. Yeah. Because you really need to get a student loan plan. And what that means is a lot of times if you when you're in residency, DSLF sounds great because your payments are a couple hundred bucks a month. And so you're on these income driven plans and you tell yourself, I'm going to go to do this public service loan forgiveness, I'm going go work for nonprofit. And then as soon as you get out, you get
your big job and your big income, all of a your payments skyrocket. And then the question, usually what happens is you're like, have seven years left on these loans. I want to hold on and work this out and get my loans forgiven. But then you'll find out that, the way you actually do this calculation is you say, don't look at your loan balance. Your loan balance doesn't mean anything for your forgiveness. It's the total
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:41.62)
Payments you would make over the next seven years Yes, so over the next seven years Let's say total amount of payments versus the total payments if you were to refinance that's when your balance actually matters Yeah And there you know, there's a lot of times where I see a position they can save thirty or forty thousand dollars if everything goes well if everything goes right Is that worth it? Is that worth staying in a state you don't like or a city you don't like or?
This is our $1 payments.
Speaker 1 (19:10.638)
a job you don't like with a boss you don't like? Probably not. But if it's six figures and it's a lot of money, then you kind of do need to make it work sometimes. Family medicine doctors aren't the highest paid physicians that we know. So they do really benefit from even 50 or $100,000 student loan. If you do benefit and
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:38.67)
A for-profit company actually bought a non-profit company. You need to consider changing jobs.
Yeah, to keep the PSL up because those payments aren't going to qualify.
Exactly in a four-pronged position. And so this is kind of the path I see a lot of physicians go down in their brains. First they freak out, then we figure it out a little bit and then we have a choice to make. Are we gonna change jobs? And I hear this all the time Ben. Probably 10 times a year. A situation will come up whether it's PSLF or something else where a physician feels like they need to change jobs but
They seem to think that they can't.
You know what I'm struck by is how quickly physicians will walk away from the prospect of PSLF. You know, I, I, I talk with prospective clients on a regular basis. And as I said, you know, this profound misunderstanding here, and many of them are like, yeah, you know, I might qualify for PSLF, but I'm not going to bother with that as if it was, you know, a buy one, get one coupon, donut store, right? Like not going to bother with that.
Speaker 2 (20:46.574)
And I'm thinking, no, this could be worth 100,000 or $200,000 on an after-tax basis, which for you is like, you know, it could be the equivalent of three years of, of earnings without spending, you know, it's like an extra three years worth of work. So I think we need to come to a conclusion on this topic, to stay and say, you you gotta, you gotta look at this.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:10.86)
No, yeah, I'm asking for one more minute here. So in Washington specifically, you know, there's a huge shortage of doctors. I looked this up for the call Washington is projected to have a shortage of 1700 family medicine doctors by 2030. And this is something that is going on across the country. So a lot of physicians, especially the ones that you just talked about, which is like, they're like, well, I have this job, I'm not going to find anything better. So I'm not going to consider going to nonprofit.
I have yet to find someone that couldn't go snap up a job like very easily. The only time that people make this choice not to change jobs is when they have a very unique specialty or maybe a situation like their job is offering them to do the exact type of work they want like an OB-GYN but mostly gynecology and they don't want to give that up.
So I'll tell. So listen, if you're listening to this and you have friends that have, you know, student loan debt, they need to get on this. And some of them, they're, you know, if they're married and they're physicians and they have kids, they should reach out to us because friends don't let friends blow off PSL.
Yeah. My, final point here for this specific listener, the person who asked this question, if you get to step three and you're going to change jobs and you have maybe six to 12 months over, can make a switch. You should consider going into forbearance because if you're not in forbearance, such you're working for a for-profit, let's say you go 10 months and you're $2,500 payments, you are throwing $25,000 down the drain.
All
Speaker 1 (22:57.486)
because they're not going to count and you're just going to start making your qualified payments when you go to the next job.
using the forbearance to preserve your money to make qualifying payments later on.
The whole point is if you're dead set on PSLF, you want to pay the least amount you can. nobody wants to drag this out for 11 years, but in their situation, they're going to have to. So you are just giving that money as just you're throwing it in the trash.
Nate, are you passionate about students?
I can tell this like this flit your boat. mean, you're really good at this. A lot of wrinkles.
Speaker 1 (23:37.742)
Well, it's, there's a lot of wrinkles and I'm frustrated to be honest. mean, I'm really frustrated for our clients. mean, I I had, did this for, you know, I'm at this student loan thing for seven years here now. And for the first four, we were just cooking with fire. like, we could do this is so great. We're going to get all this forgiveness. And then, you know, for many, many reasons.
It just everyone sort of got shafted in the last couple of years. And I'm here to help, but like we can only help so much. So don't be given a money if you don't need to. know, so and for the physicians who say, yeah, but you know, feel bad. Don't because you're serving the public. need 1700 more family medicine doctors in Washington. Yeah, it's like this is what we have for you.
So please create more physicians like this.
especially if you're an academician, you you're probably making less than you could in, you know, in the private world. And so you're taking a pay cut. You might as well get the benefit of that. are serving the public. Public service, loan, forgiveness. right. Yeah.
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (24:51.726)
All right. Next question. A radiologist in South Carolina. I discovered in January 2025 that an issue with my paycheck deferrals into my employer-sponsored HSA caused my HSA to be underfunded in 2024. Is there a way for me to make a catch-up contribution in the prior year?
You can make a ketchup contribution and a mustard contribution.
That was a dad joke. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, Kyle got this question and he was telling me there's a couple ways to do this either contact HR. Um, and then let's see, contact HR and ask if you can make an after tax contribution to your employer sponsored HSA. The issue here is you have to work with your back office because you're not going to get a paycheck. But it's totally possible. You can do this.
And he said, and he even said, you know, if they don't want to do it, like HR says, no, you can go open up a HSA fidelity and just go make a contribution for the difference in fidelity. You just want to make sure you don't over contribute. That's right. Make a tax year 20, 24 contribution.
tax year 2024.
Speaker 2 (26:06.894)
Fidelity, think Schwab's got them. Lively is one that I think my wife has a HSA at Lively. Yeah, lots of places you can get these HSAs. Yep. Credit unions. mean, you know, credit union bank. they do. They do not pay much at the bank, but yeah, they're easy to open and you can catch that up. know, so fundamentals again, health savings account.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:21.805)
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:32.174)
Is the very best tax break that a physician has period I mean Tax deduction for putting the money in okay tax free growth and no taxes unqualified withdrawals That's just about as good as it's gonna get
Yeah, and people with the where to open these accounts people assume that HSA's are kind of like You know the dependent care FSA
Yeah, I guess I gotta go through the employer.
Right, that's what people think. They think it's a benefit, but you can just go open up an HSA. Yeah. And it's on you on whether or not it qualifies. But yeah, you can open these up anywhere.
Yeah, they're not even going to ask if you have health insurance. But don't cheat on your taxidermy kids. Make sure you have the qualifying high deductible health plan.
Speaker 1 (27:14.05)
That's right.
Speaker 1 (27:20.632)
That's right. Okay, last question. Double doctor family in Colorado. What is the best goal to choose when saving for college?
I thought the best goal is a Rocky Mountain High.
That's right. This was a, this was a new family that we're serving. And it's funny because they were referral. We love referrals by the way, They were referral and they got into what they described as a heated discussion about their college goals at a dinner table with their friends. I thought that's, I've never heard that one before.
Man.
Speaker 2 (27:58.794)
It's dinner that needs more wine.
Well, a plan, I have any answer for this, but the reality is the goal, a goal is your goal. What's the best goal? mean, I don't know. What do you want to pay for? That's the best goal is whatever you want to pay for. And less than that is kind of dumb. Like you know you're going to pay for something, but you save less than that.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:31.606)
And it's not dumb just because you want to the money, it's dumb because you missed out on taxing.
Okay, I got I got a possible best goal, okay all kinds of best goals I talked with a college admissions counselor a decade ago, maybe Maybe more than that and we're talking about Ivy League versus public versus private and she said, you know It really doesn't matter where your kid goes. It's it's more important that you know, it's it's who they meet and what they do while they're there
She said, if they go and they make straight A's and they're not involved and they don't meet anybody, that's a fail at college. So I would say the best college goal is the college that your child can comfortably attend, right? One, not one where they're struggling so hard to get grades that they don't have a balance in their life. One where they're going to feel comfortable so that they can build friendships and connections. One where the professors...
And they are tuned in right one where they're to bring that child under their wing and introduce them to opportunities. And one where there's all kinds of ways to be involved for them one that they can be comfortable in. So if your kids a swimmer make sure they go to swimming college if your kids volleyball they're not good enough to get a scholarship you want to take them someplace where they have a strong intramural volleyball program. If your kids doesn't like the cold make sure they go someplace warm. I think the best college goal.
is paying for the full college experience that your child will just absolutely use up and wear out so that when they come out of their, they're transformed and they're changed by their college experience, they're on fire for learning. And they've met a whole bunch of people and not only they launched, but they're also launched for that next thing. They're launched for their master's degree or going to med school or some career that they're gonna love. I think that's the best college goal is to try to
Speaker 2 (30:28.63)
not find the college that your kid can get into, but have your kid choose the college that's going to be best for them.
I agree and you know my kids aren't in college, but I did this the wrong way and I do regret it I regret about two things in life when it comes to money I chose school based on how much it costs So I could get out without student loans and two was we paid my wife student loans off too fast Meaning we experienced zero life for about three years of marriage and now
And, know, after talking to a thousand people about money, I realized, you know, if we would have just paid it off in five years, it wouldn't have been that much different. Like, of course, I hate debt. You heard me talking about student loans. I hate it. I made my college choice based on it. I got into a marriage and sat on our hands for three years so that we could get out of it. But if I would have just calmed down and did it in five years.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (31:32.494)
I'd have been much better. But so for college, I chose based on money and I did not have a great experience. So I agree with you. The problem is these young physicians, young physicians, physicians with young children come to me, I'm doing their college planning. They don't know what their kid wants. That's really the root of this question. So I was being a little funny when I said, save for this or that, like you should know. You don't know what your child's going to choose. So.
If I have to answer this question, I would say you have no idea, zero idea, save for private school. And then here's the reason. Private is roughly the same as public plus something like an MBA.
Yeah, it was hilarious. One of my daughters has a friend who is attending Columbia. I mean, like the Columbia, the one in New York, and she's going for the same price as if she went to the U of O. Going to Columbia, right? Yeah. mean, they serve salmon there in the dining hall. Right. This is it. Rich people food.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (32:41.186)
But yeah, I mean, she's going there and of course, yeah, she's a stellar kid. She was very involved in high school, excellent writing skills. Yeah. Attending Columbia at the same costs as University of Oregon, because she's on a scholarship.
Yeah, yeah, you just don't know. So I would like if I could choose a plan for everybody would be start with private and adjust as you go. Just as you go, you can always stop saving or you can always raise your savings a little bit behind. Private's a great start.
Yeah, there you go. Good answer. Best goal. What works for your kids or private, whichever comes first. Right, so it's time for me to start to take us out. It is a new year, 2025. It is a new you. It is a new regime. It's a new frontier. Lots of new things. But guess what? 10 years from now, 20 years from now, 30 years from now, you're going to look back and go.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (33:37.354)
What did I do in 2025? What was my life like? How did I get here? And the you right now should be asking the question, how do I get to there? Right. And if you're asking that question, another question is like, how do I pay for it? What do need to do? And how do I save taxes? And that's what you get when you get a plan, when you get a plan. OK, our firm charges a one time fee for a plan that will answer a lot of those questions for you. So if you're interested in that, you want to kick your new year off right.
Go to physicianfamily.com, check out our pricing, and then click on the Get Started button. And if you're not ready for that, but you just want to see like, how am I doing for retirement? Go take our retirement well check. That's at physicianfamily.com forward slash quiz. And until next time, remember you're not just making a living, you're making a life.
Thank you for listening to the Physician Family Financial Advisors podcast. Are you getting all the tax breaks you really deserve? To find out, get your copy of the Overtax Doctors Retirement Investing Checklist available at physicianfamily.com forward slash go.
This show is for educational purposes only and is not personalized advice. Consult your tax advisor before taking action. All investments involve risk of loss, past performances no guarantee of future results. Read show notes for full disclosure.
