PFFAP-PYP-24-0516-Nate and Chelsea Questions 6 EP 73-v1
voiceover: [00:00:00] This show is for educational purposes only and is not personalized advice. Consult your tax advisor before taking action. All investments involve risk of loss. Past performance is no guarantee of future results. Read show notes for full disclosure.
Welcome to the Physician Family Financial Advisors podcast, where physician moms and dads like you can turn today's worries about taxes and investing into all the money you need for retirement and college.
Nate: Hello, physician moms and dads. I'm Nate Reneke, certified financial advisor. Financial planner and primary advisor here at physician family.
Chelsea: And I'm Chelsea Jones, certified financial planner, primary advisor, and retirement planning specialist here at physician family.
Nate: We have more questions from our clients and listeners today. And, uh, we have Chelsea on to, because she is the retirement planning specialist. So we're going to have more retirement related questions, uh, Chelsea.
Thanks for joining.
Chelsea: Yeah. It's great to be here. Nice.
Nate: Okay. So most of these questions are yours and, uh, you, you had such a [00:01:00] good pile that we thought let's get these answers on the podcast. Um, so I'm going to jump right in here. Um, I have a self employed physician. Or I'm sorry, I am a self employed physician.
Should I use a SEP IRA or a solo 401k to save for retirement? Before you give your answer, we get this question all the time because they seem very similar. Like you look these up, you look up the benefits of each and they sort of feel the same. So, is there a better option between these two?
Chelsea: There is. Yes.
And the short answer is Solo 401k, um, but there's so much more to talk about. So I'm going to kind of delve into that a little bit more. Um, so the first conflict that I see with clients whenever they ask me this question, because, um, they either read online that a SEP IRA is a good option or they hear it from their CPA.
Those are usually the two, um, Sources of information that [00:02:00] people come to me with whenever they're asking these questions. Um, and more times than not, they have asked their CPA, another financial professional, uh, what's the better option and they tend to lean towards a SEP IRA. Um, and that's because a SEP IRA, um, is easy to maintain.
It's easy for them to set up. The contribution is easy to calculate. Um, but what you're giving up. Is the opportunity to contribute to a backdoor Roth. So, and most people don't realize that because a SEP IRA is completely different from a traditional IRA, but not necessarily in the eyes of the IRS. So whenever you do a Roth conversion, yep.
If you have money in another pre tax IRA, which a SEP IRA falls in that camp, Um, then. A part of the conversion on the 7, 000 that you want to contribute in post tax dollars of just, uh, just the traditional IRA [00:03:00] contribution, part of that is actually taxable because they see all pre tax IRAs as a big bucket.
They don't see the SEP IRA as one bucket and a traditional IRA is another bucket. So yeah, in that conversion, you're taking part of the traditional IRA dollars and a smidgen of the SEP IRA dollars as well. So, um, Having a SEP IRA, especially with a large balance in it, cause you can start accumulating money in that pretty quickly.
Um, it, it blocks the backdoor Roth.
Nate: Yeah. And sort of blocks it for good because like you said, if it accumulates, uh, to a large amount, which they can, they have relatively high limits, um, it feels impossible or there's really just never an opportunity to convert it to a Roth because it's just such a large balance.
The tax bill would just be so big. And look, um. We're not throwing CPAs under the bus here because I, we, we hear that, get this question a lot. And the reality is it is easier to have a SEP. I mean, I've heard of solo 401ks that [00:04:00] you have to mail in your contributions. Um, like by snail mail. So a lot of people just opt for the SEP.
And I'm sure if you're in a rush and your CPA is like, Hey, you need to get this contribution in like now do a SEP because it's easier. It makes sense. But with a little bit of planning, um, you can set up your future retirement savings in a much Better way. So it's the solo and it takes a little bit of work up front.
So if you're hearing this now, or when this episode comes out, you have plenty of time to set up a solo for one K and you should do it. Um, and we are actively solving this problem of, of most solo for one case being administratively difficult. So Kyle on our team is working on, um, Then we'll be going through a couple different options for, what, or, or 401k.
That's not so administratively difficult. Okay. So next question. We had an internist, uh, in [00:05:00] Alabama ask, should I contribute to my 457b plan?
Chelsea: Yes. And this is another question that I get. All the time, all the time from clients. And this is kind of a two part answer. Cause there's, there's a caveat in here. So a four 57 B plan, there are two types of them.
One is a governmental, one is a non governmental. So. They sound exactly what they are. They are exactly what they sound like. A governmental plan is offered by some kind of municipality, some kind of governmental organization. A non governmental is not. It's a private company. Um, not for profit also falls in that camp.
Sometimes that can be kind of confusing. Um, but not for profit is also. Um, governmental, unless it's tied to, to some kind of municipality. Um, governmental plans, governmental 457B plans are a go. Those are great savings tools because, um, you can [00:06:00] essentially save, you know, double the pre tax dollars, um, Compared to just a 401k or a 4 0 3 B 'cause a 4 57 B plan, A governmental one essentially acts the same as a 4 0 3 B or a 401k.
Um, they're not the same, but they act similarly. So, uh, the non-governmental plan is where we start to, uh, recommend that you shy away from those for a few reasons. Um, one of the reasons is a risk of forfeiture, so the non-governmental plans. They're also, uh, called non qualified plans. Uh, so they, they follow different rules than 401ks or 403bs.
So the IRS, you know, there's, there's always a catch, uh, in most, in most cases. So in order to get the tax savings and defer money into a non governmental plan, uh, the catch is that the, uh, Plan has to be subject to what's called a risk of forfeiture. That's the, that's the [00:07:00] jargon. But what that means is if the company offering the plan goes bankrupt, then the money that you put in the 457B plan can be snatched up by creditors.
So it's, it's not truly your money. Until it comes out of that plan.
Nate: Yeah, I want to pause you for a second there. Most people heard you say that and they think, you know, not my hospital. Yeah. And that is kind of understandable. Most people, when they're working inside of a big health system, they feel like it's going well, um, Maybe we're jaded, maybe we're, or maybe we're just realists, but we have seen big hospitals, uh, be in the red all the time.
Yeah. And we've seen big hospitals go under. So, this isn't the only reason, you're going to get into the, the other reasons why, why this usually doesn't work out. Like, usually, uh, the tax benefits are more of like, Uh, a tax deferral, but not deferred until retirement. So really not, not any benefits [00:08:00] at all.
Sometimes worse than if you're just to take it as income, but it is real. I mean, we see hospital systems go under.
Chelsea: Yeah.
Nate: So anyways, sorry to cut you off, but the risk of forfeiture is a real thing.
Chelsea: It is a real thing. And then the next reason is probably the more common reason that we see, honestly, because the hospitals do go under, but this, this happens far more often is, uh, you leave the job, you go work somewhere else.
And usually with these four 57 B plans, if you leave you one have limited options of what you can do with the money. Most of the time, the default option. So what happens if you don't? Elect anything is that they'll just distribute the full balance to you. So it all comes out and is paid to you in one lump sum whenever you leave.
And that also means that it's taxed as one lump sum in that year. Um, and if you're leaving to go to another job, you're still in a high earning job. So your marginal tax rate, which is what [00:09:00] the lump sum is most likely going to be taxed at. Um, It's still like, it's going to come out and it's going to be a high tax bill because you're still in the 35, 37 plus tax rate.
Um, and between, you know, federal state, you, half of it could go to taxes. Um, Which is pretty much the benefit that you got putting it in there. So the tax, the tax benefit that you got deferring the money is pretty much negated if it comes out in that lump sum while you're still working. So yeah, it's not a win.
Nate: No, no. I mean, if you make, if let's say you're making. 400, 000 a year and you've built this up and it gets a balance of 100, 000 and then you just change jobs, which I can't stress enough how often physicians change jobs. Yeah. I mean, when we get someone on board and they're like, I've been at the same job for 20 years, it's like a shock.
Chelsea: Yeah.
Nate: Wow. 20 years. Like you used to see it all the time. You see it a lot less now. Um, and so if you're making 400, 000 a year and you distribute a hundred grand, it's like you made [00:10:00] 500 that year. So it's, it's a huge tax bill. And you know, another thing is I see all the time, especially non governmental, uh, weird setups with four 57s where they just distribute the money every five years.
Chelsea: Yeah. It's like, what's the point?
Nate: You know, it, it makes it, it. And it is, I think I'm a little bit passionate about this because most of the time physicians go into work, everybody's doing it. So they think I'm going to be the odd man out. No, this doesn't make any sense. I'm going to do it. And it, the, the reality is all the stars have to align for it to work for these non governmental.
So what's like the last thing, I know that there's another, another piece of this.
Chelsea: Yeah. So the last thing is these plans, there's a lax, a lack of flexibility in what you can do once the money is in there. So really your options are leave it there, which means leaving it at a risk of forfeiture or taking it [00:11:00] out as the lump sum.
So it's either leave it there or take it out. There's kind of no in between. And some plans will offer you, um, the option to. Like take out chunks over like a five or 10 year period. Um, but still that, that means leaving a good chunk of the money in there at risk of forfeiture, um, until you're able to take every dollar out and the lack of flexibility really comes in.
Cause you can't. Transfer that to an IRA. You can't transfer it to a 401k. There's no consolidating there. Uh, sometimes you can transfer it. If your new job, if you do move jobs and they offer a non governmental four 57 plan,
Nate: you
Chelsea: might be able to transfer it there, but then the cycle just starts all over again.
It's at a risk of forfeiture. You could leave, it could come out in lump sum, you pay taxes on it and you're just. Back where you were in the beginning, pretty much because the taxes that you saved, you paid back once it was out. So like you said, this, all the stars really have to align. Everything has to work out [00:12:00] perfectly to, um, to come out on top with a four 57 B plan, specifically a non governmental four 57 B plan.
Um, and I remember working with a client who, um, was up high in the management at her medical practice, the, uh, Geez, I'm blanking on the word that the system, the healthcare system in Oregon. Um, and she was one where we were like, okay, you kind of, you know, what's going on, you're high up in the ranks there.
You're probably not going to leave. You don't think you're going to leave the stars. Mine align on this one where, you know, we could see this working out in the end. And then ultimately it didn't, she left the job to do something else. Um, it came out in a big lump sum. She paid half of it in taxes and moved on with her life, but it just kind of sucks that.
The tax benefit that she got putting all of that money in there, cause it was a six figure account. Um, she just had to pay back when the time came.
Nate: Yeah. I, you know, um, I'll pull the curtain back a little bit [00:13:00] for our listeners as advisors. Sometimes you hear people say they want something over and over and over.
So you kind of try to make, you know, make it fit. Maybe this would work right for you. I had a similar one too. And I actually This one I think may work out, but it was just that the guy was going to retire in a few years. So like in three years, so you might as well. And basically you're deferring the taxes for three years, which is pretty reasonable.
But at the end of the day, as long as physician family has been around, uh, 25 years, We just have rarely seen the stars align and it just doesn't seem worth it because the alternative here for our listeners, like, okay, so don't do it. So what should we do? Well, you should, if you have extra money to save and you need to save more to hit your goals, you should stick this money as long as you're doing all your tax advantaged accounts, like HSA and doing your.
You're Roth, uh, backdoor Roth and filling up your 401k. After that, you're, you need to just be putting this money in a [00:14:00] brokerage account. And while it doesn't feel like you're saving a lot in taxes, There is tax benefits when you're in retirement for these brokerage accounts. So there's still a good way to Put this money to use.
It just isn't really the 457. So, uh, I, I've never heard that before, but I like it. Uh, a governmental 457 is a go and a non governmental 457 is a no go.
Chelsea: That's right.
Nate: Okay. And then one more thing on, on the governmental, uh, I believe the distribution options are usually better. Like you can, if you leave the job, you can just leave it in there.
And then I, Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can roll this over into like a 403b or 401k a lot of times.
Chelsea: You can, yeah, or a traditional IRA, any of the above.
Nate: So there's a lot more options there. Um, so yeah. Okay. So we had an anesthesiologist in West Virginia ask, Should I leave my rollover IRA? [00:15:00] Or convert it to open my back door Roth.
So before we answer the question, what are they talking about?
Chelsea: So a rollover IRA, so they had a job previously, maybe back in residency. Um, and they contributed money to a four or three B or whatever the workplace retirement plan was at their job. And it was a really small balance, less than 5, 000 bucks.
And so whenever they left, Um, that automatically was transferred into a rollover IRA because most companies, um, if the, if the workplace retirement plan, so the 401k or 403b balance is below a certain threshold, usually 5, 000, it'll automatically be transferred to a rollover IRA rather than staying in the 401k
Nate: or 403b.
Chelsea: So they have this small rollover IRA balance. That is blocking their backdoor Roth like we talked about earlier how the set blocks the backdoor Roth a rollover IRA does the exact same thing [00:16:00] But there's maybe 3, 000 bucks in this rollover IRA. So they were asking the question Should I just convert that money so that way I can, I can contribute to my backdoor Roth for the next 20 years or should I leave it there and save the taxes?
And
Nate: yeah, yeah. To make it clear, converting the money from a traditional IRA rollover IRA would cost you in taxes. Cause it was pre tax money that went in there. So you'd have to pay tax on that money all over again and then put it in a Roth. So that's the question. Should I pay these taxes in order to open?
Or make it, make it so I can do a backdoor Roth IRA in the first place.
Chelsea: Yep.
Nate: Okay. All right. So what was your answer?
Chelsea: Yeah. So for them, we ended up deciding just to convert it so that way they can pursue the backdoor Roth because the balance was low enough that they were comfortable paying You know, a thousand bucks or less in taxes to get the money moved over.
So that way they can save hundreds of thousands of [00:17:00] dollars in taxes with the backdoor Roth. Um, but for some people, um, you can open your backdoor Roth without converting the rollover IRA money. Um, and that is if you have an active 401k or four or three B that will accept rollovers from the IRA. So rollover IRA holds pre tax dollars.
The 401k holds pre tax dollars, those dollars, the dollar type matches up. So you could just consolidate to your workplace plan if it accepts rollovers. And then that'll empty the rollover IRA, which opens the back door Roth. And you can just keep on trucking from there. Um, If you don't have an active 401k, then there's nowhere to transfer it to.
So that's where you start asking the question, you know, should I convert it and kind of pay the taxes so that way I can save more with the backdoor Roth later. Um, and, uh, the answer to that really depends on the balance. If it's a relatively small balance [00:18:00] and the, the tax bill is, um, you know, they're comfortable paying that bill to save the money, then, um, then yeah, you can go ahead and convert it as long as you know what the cost is and you're comfortable with it.
But, um. Um, the situations where we see the back door truly blocked is if you have a large balance, so like six figures plus, maybe less, depending on your appetite to pay a tax bill. But if you have a large balance in your rollover IRA, and you don't have a place to roll it to or transfer it to, so no active 401k, no active 403b, then the money is just.
Um, and then you don't want to contribute, uh, to the backdoor Roth strategy, because when you conferred that you would owe taxes, and so it kind of negates the benefit there.
Nate: Yeah. This reminds me of a situation I just came across as a nephrologist, uh, doctor in Texas, and we just started serving him. He had a rollover IRA with a pretty [00:19:00] large balance in it.
And I just sat there wondering what happened. And sometimes I forget. Yeah. Uh, the outside world is, is messy outside of physician family. But basically, you know, years ago he had a 401k, there's a decent amount of money in it and he wanted to clean it up. He didn't want a bunch of four, a bunch of 401ks laying around.
So he asked his, uh, financial advisor what to do. And just kind of as a financial cleanliness thing, didn't want to leave the money in the 401k and, uh, the advisor. Told him to roll it over into an IRA. And so, you know, the problem is when you're working with financial advisors who charge an assets under management fee, they, of course, they're going to recommend this rollover and they kind of close their eyes with all the tax repercussions, um, but recommended the rollover so that he could get this money under management and start earning 1 percent off of the money.
And, you know, [00:20:00] to you and I, that is just highway robbery. I mean, it's just sad because the reality is what should have happened is you should look to see if your new 401k will accept a rollover from your old 401k.
Chelsea: Exactly.
Nate: And so you wonder like, how could this happen? How could you get a rollover IRA with all this money?
Well, it's the sneaky advisors trying to get that money under. Um, and so if you want to avoid, uh, those one, those fees, um, but two, if you want to avoid blocking your backdoor Roth, which is going to make it much easier to achieve your retirement goal, then you would look to see if you can roll this into your new, uh, Employer, uh, retirement plan.
So, um, you know, it's, it's just one of those things that it's a bit complicated. And the, the reason it feels wrong to me is these advisors, I get it. They, they are trying to get [00:21:00] paid. Um, But the reality is that you're oftentimes working with an advisor who they have to say the word trust me all the time.
Chelsea: Yeah.
Nate: Like they have to, it's like this artificial trust when in reality you should be looking for someone who's helping you that has been built, their whole system, their whole firm is built around eliminating those conflicts of interest, rather than you having to constantly make steps of faith with them that you can trust them.
They're doing the right thing for you, but there's nothing in their way of doing the wrong thing for you.
Chelsea: Right.
Nate: And so that's what they ran into. And this was years ago. So
Chelsea: yeah,
Nate: black backdoor Roth is blocked, can't save hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes. And, um, You know, it's sad story, but at the end of the day, he's still going to be on track for retirement.
It's just going to be a little lighter. Yeah. Okay. Let's see what's next here. Um, so this is a [00:22:00] complex one. And the question is, should I contribute to my company's cash balance plan? And once again, it's one of those questions that everyone, if you have a cash balance plan, usually if you're not asking questions, you just do it.
Chelsea: Yeah.
Nate: Um, because everyone's doing it, but there's a way to sort of analyze this that you, you, you do a lot. So break this down. Should, should a doctor contribute to their company's cash balance plan?
Chelsea: Yeah. First I want to explain a little bit what a cash balance plan is because some, some people don't, uh, understand it.
They've heard the words, but they're like, You know, I know it's a savings account, but I don't really know much beyond that. So a cash balance plan is what's known as a defined benefit plan. So that means that the employer is the only one contributing to that. And where this, where we see this most is for people who are partners in their practice.
And so they are the employer. So they are putting their money into the account. But technically it's an employer funded plan. [00:23:00] And because it's an employer funded plan, the employer is taking all of the risk, which means they want to, uh, be careful how it's invested. It's not going to be an account that's going to be invested aggressively.
It's going to be, uh, something that usually follows like a 30 year. Uh, treasury bill. So, um, these cash balance plans have what's called an interest credit rate, which is basically the guaranteed rate of return. So in the plan document, it'll say, um, we guarantee, or we have an interest credit rate of, uh, So the, the account will earn 4 percent every year.
If it earns more than that, then you need to contribute less next year. If it earns less than that, then you need to contribute more. So it has to stay in that, um, that range to be on track to earn 4 percent every year. Um, And the amount that you can contribute is based, uh, basically on your age and actuary has to calculate it.
Um, and the older you are, [00:24:00] the more you can contribute. So the older you are, the more you can contribute. So for, uh, Older doctors that are closer to retirement and can contribute six figures into that account pre tax. It's a great option, um, because you can put the money in pre tax if you're, you know, the most extreme case, say that you retire next year and you put in 100, 000.
And if it would have been taken out while you were still working, um, or let me back up a little bit, you saved, say 40 percent on the taxes whenever you deferred the money in there, taking it out next year in your retirement, whenever your income is lower, say you're taxed at 24 percent when it comes out.
That's a permanent tax savings of 16 percent right there, permanent tax savings, just by putting the money in one year and retiring the next and taking it out. So for older docs, it's a slam dunk because you can save a [00:25:00] lot of money and you can save a lot of taxes, uh, by putting that money in there.
Nate: Yeah, and for the older docs, um, if they're in that extreme case, which obviously working in extremes is going to help us with this example, it's just complex because everybody's on a different, you know, one point in the spectrum and that's where you are.
But in reality, they're not as aggressive as let's say a 40 year old physician who's retiring in 20 years. So 4 percent doesn't seem all that bad. I mean, maybe you're giving up a little bit, but are you really giving up 16, 000? In returns for one year. So it's, it's a question of taxes, uh, actual tax savings versus, um, the opportunity of a return given that they have to be just less aggressive in these accounts.
Like it's required there's, they're not doing anything wrong. They just have to, I mean, it's like the law, they, they have to be in a certain range. They can't take too much risk [00:26:00] because then they're risking everybody's retirement account. Okay, so, so for older doctors, usually it makes sense. And by old, we really mean close to retirement.
So if you're, if you're retiring early, but you don't feel old, you, uh, you fall into this category.
Chelsea: Yeah, because the time horizon is, is what comes into play there. You could be young, retiring early, but your time horizon, you're not going to be super aggressive once you're retired and your investments.
Nate: Right.
Chelsea: So yeah, close to retirement or an older doc approaching retirement. Um, It's usually a slam dunk. It gets a little more complex for younger doctors. Um, cause there's some things to consider. One of them we've already kind of talked about is that interest credit rate or the rate of return in the plan.
So younger doctors are able to be more aggressive with their investments because their time horizon is longer. Um, And even with the taxes saved, um, so the, really the option with the younger [00:27:00] docs is, you know, we're assuming here that we've maxed out all of their other tax advantaged accounts and it's coming down to, should I contribute to the cash balance plan or should I put my extra dollars into a brokerage account?
So the cash balance plan is pre tax. That's the tax savings, immediate tax savings. There's a moderate rate of return, and then you can take it out at a lower rate in retirement with the taxable account or the brokerage account. It's after tax dollars, you get a higher rate of return and you can take it out and pay, Capital gains taxes at retirement, which are lower than income rates, right?
So the linchpin piece there is the rate of return. So for younger docs, I've done the math on this a few times. And if you're, you know, 20 plus years from retirement, typically the taxable account is better off in, um, In terms of that extra return that you get. So the return outweighs the taxes saved, [00:28:00] but there's a breaking point.
Cause like you said, there's a spectrum, there's little ticks on the spectrum. So at some point there's going to be an inflection where the, the higher rate of return doesn't outweigh the taxes saved, and that has to do with the time horizon and the, and the, uh, rate of return and the cash balance plan. So whenever I've done that calculation, the break even point where the, Um, the higher rate of return, it starts to not outweigh the taxes saved is usually somewhere around, uh, in, in your forties.
So it starts to get questionable. Once you hit 40, it's like, did the numbers work out? Should I do the cash balance plan? Or should I keep doing the taxable account for the time being? So some some things to consider if you're up against this question is, um, you know, with your cash balance plan at work, can you opt in on a later date?
So like if it's offered and you're 40, but your break even point happens to be 45, can you just [00:29:00] opt in at 45?
Nate: Yeah.
Chelsea: Or do you have to jump in now? Or you missed the opportunity.
Nate: Right.
Chelsea: Another question would be, can you increase your contributions later? Um, so usually with a cash balance plan, you have to stick to a contribution amount for three years Um, but after that you may or may not be able to change it So if you're on that kind of teetering point where it may be better, maybe Uh, maybe not You can see if you can just contribute the minimum allowed.
Nate: Right.
Chelsea: And then later on, whenever it starts to make more sense, crank up your contributions.
Nate: That's a good, that, I haven't even thought of that before. That's why I'm going to be on Chelsea. That's a great idea. Yeah.
Chelsea: Yeah. Because that's, that's what I, uh, talked about with, uh, the most recent client that I've, uh, worked with on this question is, um, because he was younger.
And he was like, well, all of my partners voted. Yes on it. Um, I need to opt in or I lose the opportunity. So I'm just going to contribute the minimum and, um, I'll crank it up later whenever it starts making more [00:30:00] sense. And so that's what we landed on there.
Nate: And, and it's not like, you know, um, we're in the business sometimes of splitting hairs and yes, there is a breaking point.
Yes. Theoretically, uh, he's going to lose a little bit of money. Um, but it's still a good, I mean, he's still saving in taxes, he's still getting a rate of return. It's probably acting some, something like a bond. So it's just a, you know, less risky way to do this. Um, it's not all bad. It's just, uh, if you do, if you, if you cut the way you can make it worse, I guess, is to max it out.
The first day on the job, like refresh out of residency and you're putting in, you know, tens of thousands of dollars in every year, then you're really leaving a lot of money on the table. But with some careful consideration, you know, you can get the most out of this, not feel like, uh, outcasts from the rest of your group for, for not taking part [00:31:00] of this plan.
They all voted on, but you know, another reality is that most people voting are probably older, so it probably does make sense for them. So, okay. So, um, questions or things to consider for cash balance plan. It's usually, uh, it's usually best if, or it gets better and better the older you get.
Chelsea: Yeah.
Nate: Um, but not bad.
It's a, it's a great benefit to be offered, uh, lots of ways to save money with the cash balance plan, especially if you're, if you're getting older. Okay. Thank you, Chelsea. I think that's all we have time for today. Believe it or not, we have questions left on the table. Uh, so Chelsea will be back and we'll answer those.
Uh, if you have a question for Chelsea or any other question, you might ask, uh, someone on our team, Ben, me, uh, Kyle and investments, please email us at Podcast at physician family. com and we will put it in an episode. Um, but that is it for today. And until [00:32:00] next time, remember, you're not just making a living, you're making a life.
voiceover: Thank you for listening to the physician family financial advisors podcast. Are you getting all the tax breaks you really deserve to find out, get your copy of the overtax doctor's retirement investing checklist available at position family. com forward slash go.
