057 PFFAP-PYP-23-1004-Your Old Physician 401k
Voiceover: [00:00:00] This show is for educational purposes only and is not personalized advice. Consult your tax advisor before taking action. All investments involve risk of loss. Past performance is no guarantee of future results. Read show notes for full disclosure.
Welcome to the Physician Family Financial Advisors podcast, where physician moms and dads like you can turn today's worries about taxes and investing into all the money you need for retirement and college.
Nate: Hello, physician moms and dads. I am Nate Radeke, Certified Financial Planner and Primary Advisor here at Physician Family Financial Advisors.
Today, we are going to talk about your old Physician 401k. Is it a time bomb or a treasure chest? By the time physicians make it to the middle of their career, they usually have accumulated two or three different 403b or 401k's.
And after a while, it gets, what we hear is it gets hard to keep track of all of them. And a lot of physicians wonder what to do about them. [00:01:00] So today we have one of our very own Kyle Helsley is coming back on the show to help us address this question. So Kyle, I just want to make sure before we get started, is this a real thing?
I think, I think when we were talking about this, you said people ask you about their old 401ks all the time. They want to clean them up. But is this a real thing? Is it more than just cleaning up the accounts? And like Are there consequences to this decision?
Kyle: Uh, attic theory, you know, we can only carry so much stuff around in our brains. And so, you know, financial accounts are important things. And so these old plans that sit out there from residency or, uh, you know, pre, pre attending physicians rack up these old plans and they just linger in people's brains.
And they're like, I just want to get these consolidated into my current plan and be done with, you know, having to think about all those accounts. But. Uh, there are, [00:02:00] uh, situations where that just doesn't make sense to do that. Mm hmm.
Nate: Right. Yeah. Either it doesn't make sense to do it or, or, uh, the other, the other kind of personality type is just to that
too, depending on which way we should go. So I think we need to start with. You know, kind of what the options are people that for people that have old 401ks or 403bs I'm just gonna say 401ks. Okay, but but for the audience, that's 403bs any retirement accounts you have we're gonna talk about it with using the word 401k, but Kyle what options do people have?
So this is how it goes. They Residency or fellowship. They get a different job. They were contributing to those accounts before and now they've moved on. So they're a new employer. They can't contribute to the old account anymore. And they want to know, what do I do with my old 401k?
Kyle: Yeah, there's really four [00:03:00] options out there.
Uh, first one is you could just withdraw it. Oh, now that's not a.
Yeah, yeah. Not, not advisable to do, but it is an option. And, uh, as lame of an option as it is, it's, it, it is one. And so immediately we dismiss that. That's not good advice from a tax standpoint. Right. So, uh, the next simplest option it there, you know, do nothing with it. Right. That's certainly an option. And then you have your, your two rollover options.
You got your rollover to your current active 401k or workplace retirement plan, or you can roll it over to an IRA.
Nate: Okay. So that's, those are our options. We threw one out, out in the trash right away, but the leave it there or transfer it. Um, and. While those are the options, there's a lot to [00:04:00] be said about each of those.
So, when you're trying to make this decision, what are the things that a physician should consider when transferring their old 401k money into a new 401k or even an IRA?
Kyle: Yeah, so not all retirement plans are created equal, they're all individually formed at some level. And so of different fees, uh, what we call, uh, generally we call administrative fees.
That's what the custodian. Who, who, uh, houses and custody, uh, custody's the account. They, they take a small fee for keeping the, the account compliant and reporting the statements and such. Um, then, uh, within that plan, uh, every plan has its own unique investment lineup. And so, uh, if you recall from our, an earlier podcast, we did not all mutual funds are created equal as well.
So you want to consider what investments are available, [00:05:00] uh, in your retirement plans. Um, and then if you're pursuing a backdoor Roth IRA, which most physician families should, uh, there's that to consider as well in how this rollover will impact the backdoor Roth. Oh,
Nate: okay. Yeah, that one gets, gets a lot of families because they assume, well, to be honest, a lot of times, um, An advisor kind of puts that in their head because an advisor can make a bunch of fees off their IRAs.
So they just say roll it into an IRA, but they don't really look into whether or not that's best for, for the client. So, um, the fees, let's start there. Uh, what are, what kind of fees are we talking about here? Like how much?
Kyle: Yeah, well, you know It's definitely something that you should consider because i've seen in eight years.
I've been looking at retirement plans Uh, for physicians, I've seen a whole, uh, [00:06:00] variety of fee structures and fee arrangements, uh, at the custodian level. And one that I saw, it was a spouse of a physician and, um, East Coast and they had, uh, she had an old retirement plan with about a hundred thousand in it and, uh, a new retirement plan, her current employer, and, uh, We were talking consolidation and she asked the right question, should I consolidate this old plan?
And so we looked at it together over a video call and identified that her plan had a 1 percent custodian fee and a 1% Uh, investment fee for a total of 2 percent annually on her balance at her new active 401k plan such that that 100, 000 that she was considering transferring would then be exposed to that 2 percent fee.
Ooh. And so we were like, whoa, let's, let's [00:07:00] not consolidate 401k
Nate: Custodians, like even Fidelity, you might move from job from a Fidelity brand plan to another Fidelity brand plan. This is no big deal, you just move right over and consolidate your accounts for cleanliness. But that 2%, oh my goodness, like we talked about about 1%. Oh, that's a lot of money. And that, you said it was a hundred thousand, which, you know, in the grand scheme of things doesn't seem like a ton of money.
So you might, you might just do it out of wanting to consolidate your accounts. But if this was a young, a young person, that money could get to the hundreds of thousands of dollars by the time they retire, paying that 2 percent fee the whole way. That's,
Kyle: that's [00:08:00] right. That's a huge 2% over the next, that's a huge number over the next 20 to 30 years.
Goodness gracious. Maybe longer. Yeah. Yeah.
Nate: Hmm. So that, you know, I, I'm, I'm, I mean, I think you and I both know, but I'm, I'm curious , what, what they're doing to earn 2% on a 4 0 1 K. Um, I mean, do these people even give advice about the account?
Kyle: It's, uh, it was an advisor structured plan through the custodian.
So it was the custodian, the custodian's advisors. And, uh, you, uh, it said on the website that you had access to advisors and you had, um, uh, you, you had access to these specialty advisor, uh, Uh, created mutual funds that were actively managed, uh, not path of indexed. And, uh, when we looked at, you know, sometimes it's make sense to pay a higher fee for an investment if you get a better return.
But when we looked [00:09:00] at the trailing performance, it lagged the index by a little bit. It didn't quite. Uh, have the returns the index was producing and it had a mutual fund fee for the specialty mutual fund. So half of it went to the specialty advisor managed mutual fund, the other half went to the, uh, custodian advisors that you could contact at any time.
And it just makes me think of when I, I used to work at, uh, uh, credit union here in Oregon. Uh, they had a, a John Hancock 401k plan and there was a guy who, uh, came in. Uh, for your initial enrollment, um, to, to talk to you about, um, you know, why you should sign up for the 401k and the match. And so you can understand your benefits.
And after that, you know, after I talked to him that one time, I never heard from the guy again, you know? Um, and that's kind of, that's kind of how a lot of these. 401k advisor plans kind of, you know, operate a little bit. It's kind of like, we're here to help you, but we're not going to kind of actively pursue you, you know, to get stuff [00:10:00] done type
Nate: thing.
Yeah, because they don't need to actively pursue you. You're, they're trying to save on taxes and get the match from the company. And that's all you care about. You don't care. Well, that's all many people care about. I, I can think of another story too. I worked at a big fortune 500 company, you know, long time ago.
And I remember they had an advisor, which I didn't even get a notice about, but someone I saw in my department went down there and I was thinking, there's like a thousand people in this, in this building. We have one advisor for a 401k plan. And he would just talk to people about, Um, really why you should invest in the first place.
So those advisors are eating good. They want their slice too. So sheesh. Okay. So we want to stay away from those and get into accounts that have low fees. There's some other things to consider too, like investment options. Um, [00:11:00] what's like the first step to considering the fees? Like how would you. Look at the fees and how do you find them?
Kyle: Yeah, that can be a little tricky sometimes. Um, the easiest place to start is on your login, your, your 401k login. Um, and you want to do this at both plans because you got to compare and contrast. So you're going to want to do this for the old plan and the new plan. And so you're going to want to log in to each plan and you're going to want to.
Go on the website and you're going on a look, uh, in the forms and documents section, usually some, some iteration of that, uh, you're looking for, sometimes there's a PDF right there that says, you know, fee disclosure. Sometimes you have to click on the plan document and, uh, use the table of contents to locate the fee section.
Sometimes it's there. Sometimes. You have to order these documents so like you log in and there's like a spot where you check a box for what documents you want and then they mail it to you [00:12:00] and it takes a few days. So that's one way you can get the information. Um, sometimes it's not even on the. Uh, website login at all.
And so the next step would be to contact your HR department. Uh, and if that doesn't work, you have to contact the custodian directly. You know, the, the, the fidelity or the Schwab or the wherever your 401k is housed at. Sometimes that's where you get the answer. Um, yeah, I found another way, another way to kind of.
Get that information without having to go through all those steps is go to the activity transaction history and you can look through that. Sometimes you can get like a summary statement produced online and you can look and oftentimes you'll see transactions of the fees coming out. And if you see even dollars, you can assume it's pretty much an even dollar.
Occurrence. If you see lots of odd random numbers, it's usually a percentage based fee, um, and you can back into the number by [00:13:00] dividing the fees over the average account balance to kind of get an idea of what percentage they're charging. But, yeah. So you kind of just have to go through the motions to bird dog that information.
Nate: Yeah, I feel like what you just said, like you and I are so used to that. It's, we usually can find something online. Um, with a login, um, but just to encourage the listeners, a lot of times this is available and it's not, you don't have to go through the ringer to, to get your hands on this information. But if you do have to go through the ringer, I would consider that a bit of a red flag.
My spouse has a pretty, I would say a pretty bad. Uh, plan at work and it's really hard for me to find the fees and I just know the company well enough to know the reason why. [00:14:00] So you know, it's high fees. And so the harder it is to find, probably the more you should be encouraged. Or motivated to find it.
Um, but usually you can go online and find something that, that tells you right in plain language. So, so that's the first step. And we know with, uh, physicians, these accounts can get really large. And so that is a really big step here. Like, if you imagine, you know, anywhere from 20 to 50 percent of your retirement money, can be found in these 401k accounts between you and your spouse.
Uh, that's a huge amount of your retirement fund and the fees in there matter a lot. It matter a lot. I can really drag down the, the, the growth of your account when, uh, the vampires are sucking on it. So, um, the next [00:15:00] thing to consider is after you've looked at the fees and you've compared the new versus the old.
The next thing to consider is your investment options. And while the investment options are obviously going to be probably easier to find on the website, they're probably harder to assess. So in sort of plain language, how, how do you go about assessing your, your investment options?
Kyle: Yeah, I like to start from the top down approach.
So I. Over the whole list, looking at the overall asset classes provided. So I'm looking for, like, is there a U. S. stock fund? If so, how much of the U. S. stock market, you know, do I see just the 500 index or do I see a total U. S. stock? You know, I'm looking to see how much diversification I can get in the U.
S. market. I do the same with international, you know, how much international How much emerging market, you know, are those options even available? Same with the bonds. What kind of bonds do we [00:16:00] have? Do we have good, good credit quality, intermediate term, you know, bond index, or what do we got for bonds? You know, it kind of just take, take the list in, you know, is there a target date funds?
Am I a target date investor or their target date funds? Those are the types of things that I kind of look at from a broad perspective. And then from there I start drilling in because sometimes some of the funds are really obvious. You'll. You'll spot them for me anyways, at least, uh, you know, it's like, oh, there's usually the word index is a dead giveaway of something.
I'm gonna mm-hmm. really be interested in. Um, and right away if I see like, you know, a bunch of index funds and I, I, you know, you start looking at the expense ratios and you see they're low and, you know, things like that, you start to see like, I'm on the right track, uh, with the investments there. So really, uh, It's kind of two things.
It's like what level diversification am I getting and what am I paying for that in terms of the annual expense ratio on the mutual fund and performance is almost kind of, you know, [00:17:00] that's, of course, you got to consider trailing performance. Um, if you're looking at stuff kind of outside indexes, if you're not sure if it's a true index fund or not, you know, that's, well, that's another time you go to performance and be like, how close is this?
Fun matching the index to give you an idea if it's an index fund or how far it is from the index, that that's something important to consider, you know, and again, I alluded to this earlier. Sometimes you'll see expense ratios, not the end all be all either, because sometimes you'll see a fund with a slightly higher expense ratio somewhere else.
But then when you look at the trailing performance, it outperforms above and beyond the increase in the expense ratio. And You might want to do more research as to why, but you know, if, if it's a sound fund, then there could be an argument that, you know, okay, this one's got a higher expense ratio, but I'm going to, this is going to be, I feel this is the better investment still.
So you kind of have to approach the investment from those, those main three angles. Yeah. And you can go as deep as you want. You can go deeper, too, but I
Nate: mean, that's... Yeah, hearing you talk about this, [00:18:00] it sounds like there's, uh, there's many levels to how deep you want to go, and it can be intimidating. Um, the only thing I have to say about that is, first of all, we have other episodes of the podcast that break, break that down a little bit more.
It's not exactly the topic of today, but, you know, start by looking, if you're really, if you really want to do this on your own without... help. You're going to have to understand those things. And you'll have to start doing some research by listening to our podcasts, other podcasts, um, and actually digging into what these investments are like getting on morning star and looking them up, understanding expense ratios, which is just how expensive the fund is compared to all the other ones, understanding if it's actually indexed.
And a lot of, a lot of people probably have no idea how much. you know, U S index they want. But if, if you're going to make this decision on your own, [00:19:00] it, it, and, and further investment decisions on your own, those are some things that you need to know about. So either get some help or start digging in because this is where it really matters.
Like just going with any old fund. Can really hurt your performance and it could also just put you Your investment far away from your goal Right, like it could just be far too aggressive and you unknowingly are taking unnecessary risk Or the opposite exactly So you're you're looking at fees and investment options let's imagine that they are similar or Yeah, or even Um, even slightly worse, I guess, but you just want to consolidate everything.
Um, but you're trying to decide, is this worth it? And kind of what are the consequences of moving my money other than fees and investments? So are there any [00:20:00] like, well, when you actually perform the transfer, what does it take from somebody to get that done? What are the consequences?
Kyle: Yeah. So. There's your, your energy, your time and your energy.
Um, you know, as a father of three and full time employee, my energy is precious to me. And a physician and their family probably have even less time than I do. And so, uh, our time is valuable and it's precious to us. And um, these, these consolidations sometimes can drag on and they can require follow up calls and, and things like that.
It can, it can kind of consume you for a little while, kind of, you know, keeping track of all this and the time you put into it. So. Um, you know, sometimes it's just not worth the time and the energy to consolidate it when the old plan is, you know, has a good fee arrangement and a low cost fee arrangement and good mutual funds might not be [00:21:00] worth your energy
Nate: to do that.
Maybe it's not worth it right now, right? Because if they're similar and someday you want to clean it up, but you don't have the time right now, this is a one time thing. You put the energy in, you put the few hours into doing it. And then you're done. So, I think I've heard you say before, do it when you have the energy and the time.
Yeah, that's
Kyle: right. Yep. Yeah, don't try to squeeze it in, you know. Yeah, and, uh, These transfers move old school by cash. So they, they cut a check and they mail a check to your new 401k and, and then the deposits made that can take three to six weeks. And while that's happening, your money's out of the market.
It's, you know, sitting in a check on its way to be deposited. So, uh, you know, it's not a super concern for me, but it's. It's definitely something worth stating.
Nate: Yeah. Yeah. Well, so like how much does that matter? [00:22:00] So if I'm hearing you correctly, they sell your positions, what you're invested in at your old 401k so that they can write a check in cash.
It doesn't transfer automatically to your new 401k and for potentially, you know, a month or longer. You're not invested in the market. So, like, what, what's, does that actually move the needle in the wrong direction?
Kyle: No, it's actually something that I don't even consider when, when making these recommendations.
It's basically akin to market timing, right? Because If the market goes down while you're sitting while your money's in a check on its way Then you're happy because it was out of the market when the market went down If the market goes up, then maybe you feel like you missed out on some returns But there's no way to know the future and so I'll go right back to the energy thing You know, just do the transfer when you have the time and space in your [00:23:00] life to do it.
That's that's the right time to do it You know, uh, you don't know what the market's going to do and it's a short enough timeframe. It's not going to impact your plan,
Nate: right? Yeah. Yeah. You, you oftentimes hear people talk about returns and they talk about it over an entire year. And if that returns are in the double digits, that's like a terrific year.
And then we're talking about, you know, four weeks. So even if it was a great month. you'll never know the difference the day you retire. It's like, it's just a blip on the radar. It's kind of the cost of doing business. Um, if you're moving to save fees, it will make up for itself really no matter what the market does, uh, rather than being out of it.
So that's kind of a nothing, but it's, it's something to consider. I mean, it, it happens. And then just the energy. So once you have the time and energy, And you, you find [00:24:00] out that your new 401k is going to be better for fees and investment options. You're good to move the money. But there are some times where we've had people come through our doors and float out the idea of transferring their money to an IRA or maybe they've already done it.
So why would they do that? What situations do you see people have that idea or? When they've, when they've already done it, like, why did they do it?
Kyle: Yeah. Uh, if you go on the internet and you, and you, you know, search rollover consolidation, you'll find just pages and pages about relative IRA now relative IRA today, uh, there's a big incentive in the industry to have you roll your 401k into an IRA, um,
You know, if, if a custodian doesn't want your account to leave to another custodian, they, if you roll it into an IRA there, it's so easy to do cause it's right here where your 401k is at, [00:25:00] then they get to retain your business. And advisors in the past would also use the IRAs as a, Oh yeah, I'll help you roll that over to your IRA that I managed for you that's subject to my fee schedule.
So, um, Luckily, the Department of Labor passed that law, uh, uh, where we have, where advisors have to disclose the benefits of the, uh, old custodian, the old provider versus the new provider anytime an account is being rolled under their management. So, if, uh, a rollover to a retirement plan that they're managing, they are required by law to disclose.
the benefits, pros and cons of that transfer. So, uh, make sure you review that before you approve any transfers with your advisor. Got it. I got off in the weeds there a little bit, but I'm going to, I'm going to circle back to your question, which was, uh, [00:26:00] uh, you know, what are some other scenarios where Or why would people roll it to an ira?
So mm-hmm. , a couple other scenarios and, and I've actually made this recommendation myself to roll over an old 4 0 1 K into an I rra mm-hmm. . And, uh, the reason for that is, uh, the physician was retired. Uh oh. So they're no longer, yeah. They're no longer contributing to their IRAs. They're now spending down, and so, Uh, it, it, uh, just makes sense to consolidate everything into, into one account at that point.
Nate: Yeah. So eventually you're, you will have to, or you probably should roll it into an IRA at some point. But if you're a working position, it's usually, uh, it would be very uncommon to see that as the best option. So read your disclosures and. So, something I hear all the time, and [00:27:00] this is mainly from the people you're talking about trying to collect fees, but is that you'll have more control and you get to choose anything you want.
You don't have to worry about investment options because we have all the investment options if you roll into an IRA, but what would be a negative? of rolling into an i r a. Like what, what, other than the fees. Let's imagine you're, you don't care about the fees for some reason with your, with your, um, advisor.
Like why is it a bad idea for physicians to put their 4 0 1 K money into an i r a?
Kyle: Yeah. When they're actively saving, uh, most physicians should be pursuing a backdoor Roth i r a and to efficiently pursue a backdoor Roth strategy year in and year out. You want to keep your traditional IRA. Empty and only fund it with after tax contributions, you know, non deductible IRA contributions.
As soon as you roll [00:28:00] over that old 401k or 403b, which is 100 percent pre tax, never been taxed money, and you roll it over to a traditional IRA, it retains that pre tax status. And now you've You've blocked your backdoor Roth strategy by filling it full of pre tax dollars and it makes your conversions every year after that, if you continue to make conversions, it makes them extremely tax inefficient, such that it doesn't make sense to keep doing it at that point.
I see. And so you've blocked your backdoor Roth, and that's, that's not good.
Nate: Yeah, we, we, uh, are constantly saying, don't block your backdoor Roth. And this is the big no, no here is moving 401k money in there. Cause if you get a good chunk of money in there, it's just not worth it anymore. So it sounds to me like.
Almost 100 percent of the time, it's, it's not a great option to move your 401k into an IRA [00:29:00] if you are actively saving for retirement because it blocks your backdoor Roth. At some point, you will transfer to an IRA, and I imagine that has to do with RMDs, right? Like, if you're moving money from, if you're retiring, and you move money from a 401k to an IRA, it's getting it all into one account, uh, to benefit you for your required minimum distributions.
Is that right?
Kyle: Yeah, yeah, that's, yeah, back to the retired physician again. Yeah, I make that recommendation to go ahead and consolidate everything into the IRA because you will be subject to required minimum distributions and those you have to You have to take a specific amount or more each year from every retirement plan.
That's subject to the required minimum distribution. So that'll be all the old 403 B's and 401 K's all your old IRAs out there minus the Roths [00:30:00] and You know if you have multiple, you know, four or five of those accounts and every year you're got to make sure you take those five RMDs So rolling them all into one IRA when you're retired makes it such that you just have the one account Taking a requirement of distribution from and allow you to spend more time enjoying your retirement, which you've worked so hard
Nate: for.
Right? Yeah. Uh, you have different, different complexities in retirement when it comes to withdrawing money. You don't want to worry about multiple accounts and it just makes things really difficult. So clean everything up. It's constantly, you know, uh, It's like cleaning the kitchen. It's always dirty. No matter what stage of the game you're in, it's just things change.
So it makes sense to me. Well, so at some point you're going to, you're going to get it out of there, just not too early, uh, so that you can efficiently prepare for retirement. Everything we're saying is essentially pointing at. What you should do to get them move the money But there are obviously the other [00:31:00] side of this is if you do the research and you figure out that it's not beneficial to move the money What what should you do?
What's your advice to people who are going to leave their money in an old workplace retirement account?
Kyle: Yeah, you just want to make sure the account is exactly how it should be, you know you I recommend reviewing the account top to bottom, making sure that it's in a good place before you, uh, move on from that decision.
So, uh, when I want to call the client and, and we make a decision to not consolidate immediately, I'm like, let's, let's review your old plan. Let's get it. Let's get it tucked in. And so you'd want to look at, uh. The most important thing, honestly, the most important thing to look at, I would say, especially with an old plan, is reviewing your contact information.
Seems kind of trivial to do, but life changes and you move. Beneficiaries change, you maybe had more children, or [00:32:00] maybe something else with your family changed, and so you really want to make sure that You go in and make sure your address is correct, your email is correct, your phone number is correct, your beneficiaries are correct, um, and then, of course, that it's in the right investment.
And, but, again, the contact information is so important because with these old plans, things can change with old plans, and you want to make sure. You're receiving the communications of around this old plan. So don't, don't be junking your mail for your old plan, you know, open it. Yeah. You'll, you'll get a lot of like, you know, advertising stuff and maybe disclosures and things that don't really need your attention.
But I've, I've seen, uh, through my experience, all sorts of communications get missed or, or get caught by the client, depending on how diligent they are and things that are really important. Like, for example, uh, retirement plans. Go through all sorts of changes, like, uh, trustee and custodian changes. So like maybe your plan [00:33:00] was at Fidelity and now it's at Empower, you know, you're the old employer changed providers.
And that's something you should know because you don't want to lose track of where your account's at. You want to build a look at it and review it, you know, uh, investment lineups change. So the investments that are available to you to pick in that plan might change from time to time. And, uh, that that could have an impact on what you're invested in, or maybe there's a better option now.
So, uh, you want to make sure you receive that communication. Uh, sometimes plans dissolve, you know, companies get bought out, or they, they, they close their doors, and the 401k is no more. And you usually get a notice saying you have to do something with this plan within, by this date, or we're going to automatically roll it into an IRA, uh, in your name, which again, Uh, if you're doing a backdoor Roth, that's like, Oh no, don't do that.
So you definitely want to keep those communications, you know, in, you know, be reviewing those communications to make sure you don't miss those big events. [00:34:00]
Nate: Right. Yeah. And it's something that just came into my head too, is, you know, you have new investment options, obviously you have to make that choice again, but the other one is it may no longer make sense to stay.
Maybe then is the time to move your money to your new 401k. Cause if the fee structures usually change, um, We see that a lot. I mean, we, we've experienced that ourselves. We've moved 401k custodians here at work and the fee structures change. So it's time to go through the whole exercise again, top to bottom, make sure you're still in the right place.
Okay, well, good. So, um, what, what's like the, the big takeaway here, like what's the number one thing people should take away from this episode?
Kyle: Keep more of your retirement in your pocket. Look into your retirement consolidation options closely and make an informed decision today.
Nate: Perfect. Okay, [00:35:00] that's all for today.
Until next time, remember, you're not just making a living, you're making a life.
Voiceover: Thank you for listening to the Physician Family Financial Advisors podcast. Are you getting all the tax breaks you really deserve? To find out, get your copy of the Overtax Doctor's Retirement Investing Checklist, available at physicianfamily.
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