Speaker 1 (00:00.098)
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Speaker 2 (00:26.35)
Hello, physician moms and dads. I'm Ben Utley, certified financial planner and service team leader at Physician Family. I'm Nate Rennecke, certified financial planner and primary advisor here at Physician Family. Welcome to this episode. Today's episode, we are going to be exploring the phenomenon called mom guilt. I have personally experienced mom guilt at my house through watching my spouse navigate life.
with young children as a working professional. And Ben, I know you've experienced this too. Yeah, I've seen it in my wife, particularly when she was in the workforce. Yes. So on this episode, we're going to be exploring this topic. But to do that, we thought we should bring in someone that has actually experienced the guilt themselves. So we reached out to our newsletter subscribers and asked for a physician mother to help us discuss this topic.
and were able to get a special guest today, Dr. Sandra Rood. Welcome, Sandra.
Hi, thanks for having me. Glad to be here.
Of course, thank you so much for joining us. We probably wouldn't be able to do this episode without you. can you tell the audience just a little bit about yourself as a medical practitioner and then maybe tell us a little bit about yourself as a mom?
Speaker 1 (01:49.262)
Sure. So I went to medical school in Michigan and Michigan State University and graduated from there, did one year of internship at the University of Kansas and then went back to Michigan and completed my residency at DeVos Children's Hospital in Grand Rapids. After that, my first real paying job was here in Eugene, Oregon, where I've lived for about 17 years now.
I have worked in a large multi-specialty group as a general pediatrician. I have co-owned a smaller group practice. And currently I work in the public sector for a county FQHC, which I really enjoy. And currently I am an associate medical director there and I guide and develop our pediatric department.
Wow. Okay. So the gauntlet, everything and all while being a mom. So tell us about yourself as a mom.
That's true. So I have a 13-year-old son. He has special needs. He is diagnosed with Tourette syndrome and ADHD. So we have a little bit of extra special stuff that I do for him. I am divorced from his father, so I co-parent. And I am happily remarried to my husband, Tyler.
Okay, yeah, once again, been through, it sounds like quite a bit with, as a mom and all while being a physician. So that's what we're here to talk about today.
Speaker 1 (03:33.72)
I like to tell people I parent hard.
Okay, and work hard. Yes. Okay, so we obviously did a bunch of research about this, Andrea, and we kind of halfway through the research realized we kind of know what's going on, but we also kind of don't. So with mom guilt, because obviously we've never experienced mom guilt. So we have our own ideas about what this might be, but in your own words, can you just define mom guilt and kind of what that means to you?
So first of all, think every mother experiences mom guilt, whether or not they're working outside of the home or working in the home. And what my experience with it is, is that I think societally and biologically, women and men to some extent, I'm sure have a drive to make their child their number one priority in life.
anytime we do anything for ourselves or for our work or anything that is not directly related to our child, I think we worry that we're not giving 100 % to our child. And I think we have this notion that we should be. And so the guilt is in that divide between the 100 % of our time and energy and what amount we're able to devote to our child.
That word, the should word is a very powerful word. Give me an example. Do you have a a particularly memorable time when you experienced mom guilt?
Speaker 1 (05:08.43)
So I think I'll just share currently that, of course, as a 13-year-old, my kid is in middle school. And middle school is pretty universally miserable from what I'm able to ascertain from other people. Both historically and now, there's a lot of bullying and a lot of arguing and some fighting. of course, the material itself and just showing up to school is complicated. They're all in stages of puberty.
So there's a lot going on. And I think I experienced probably some of the worst mom guilt of my life now when I miss a call from my kid who's at school. So I'll be in, you know, rooms with patients or in a meeting with someone and either can't get to the phone or I don't carry my phone with me when I'm in patient rooms. And I'll come back and I'll see that number and think, no.
What did I miss? How bad is it? Are they just calling me because he didn't get some paperwork turned in or is there something actually happening? So that's, know, intermittently and unfortunately, unexpectedly somewhat disturbing in the middle of the day and does make me feel like I should have been right here waiting for a phone call in case there was a problem so I could address it right away for him.
Sandra, when that happens, there a place that your mind goes or is there, do you immediately begin to think, it's going to be okay? Or do you go deeper into the pain and think, gosh, you know, I really, really should have been there. I should do something about it. What's the kind of the knee-jerk reaction to the feeling of mom guilt?
think it depends on what the original problem was, right? So I end up calling and finding out what's going on. Is it resolved? Is it not resolved? And that has something to do with it for sure. I've done a lot of work on myself and on my mom guilt because in my mind, me being unhappy with parenting or
Speaker 1 (07:21.518)
doubting myself unnecessarily doesn't make me a better parent. And I don't think that's better for my son or for myself. And so I really do try to immediately counter some of those thoughts and really be aware of recognizing them. And I have other thoughts that I use instead, such as let me find out what's actually happening here.
or some of these calls are even totally unnecessary or they get resolved by the time I call back, you know, even half an hour later, he's gone back to class, everything's taken care of and there's not an issue. I really work hard on not letting it sort of affect the rest of my day, affect my patients, affect how I'm taking care of my son and responding to whatever the issue is.
If I'm in a heightened state or feeling miserable and defeated myself by the time I call, I'm just not as good as support for him.
This is really beautiful and and I see symmetry here. I mean you've come to the recognition that your the condition that comes from feeling guilt about your parenting Impairs your ability to parent effectively. That's what I'm hearing. That's that's amazing, right? Would have never thought of that I Can tell you've really done your work
I have done a substantial amount of work.
Speaker 2 (08:54.83)
When you encounter other moms that are experiencing mom guilt, particularly physician moms, do you share your journey in terms of the work that you've done? you encourage them? Have you seen other people take that approach and have success with it?
Yes, I think it's so important. think women deserve to feel confident in their decisions. Physician moms and a lot of moms that aren't physicians are really bright, capable people. Humans have been raising children for a really long time and on the whole rather successfully. So.
I feel like we owe it to ourselves to be able to feel more calm, feel more confident. I agree with what I said before, which I'll reiterate, which is I think it makes us better parents if we can be calm and confident in the way that we move forward with our kids.
And you mentioned that we've been raising kids for millennia, right? Yes. I'm curious. I mean, there's no way could know, but what do you believe about mom guilt in terms of its origin? Do you believe this is something that's kind of always been with us that may be part of how we got here? Or maybe this is something that's that's modern or, you really recent, you know, where what's your what's your best guess about?
how long Mom's been with us, Mom Guilt has been with us and kind of the origin.
Speaker 1 (10:34.606)
So I think there are probably a couple different factors that contribute to mom guilt the way it is in our modern age. Initially, I would say that every parent I meet wants to take good care of their child, really at all ages. It's very unusual for someone not to do their very best to try to take excellent care of their child and try to read about what to do and talk to people about what to do.
and come in and ask the pediatrician, which is me in many cases, what, what to do, what would be best. So I think there probably always was some degree of questioning as to whether or not what they were doing was ideal for their child. I do think in the modern area, there's been a lot more pressure. I think that for one thing, when women went back to work in the
business world, in the professional world, and we had more and more professional women, I think that really raised questions among the professional moms, the moms that stayed at home, and probably men as well, just in our society about what is the role of a woman? Can a woman effectively be a parent and have a full-time job outside the home, or even a part-time job outside the home?
And I'll tell you that if you look at Facebook mom groups today, you'll see that that question is still hotly debated. And I think that stems from our own insecurity as moms trying to defend what our choices have been. And really what I believe is that what you've chosen to do as a mom for your family can work for your family. And what I really want moms to
be able to know and take on is the decision that you've made is the best for you and your family, whether that's to stay at home until your children are graduated and out of the house, whether that's to work part-time, full-time, put your child to daycare, have a nanny, any of those choices can really be the right choice. And I've seen children raised in all of these circumstances do really well and be amazing, successful, happy people.
Speaker 2 (13:00.91)
You know, it seems like society is constantly moving the goalposts for women. How do you begin to define, for yourself, not necessarily for our listeners, but for Sandra Ruud, how do you begin to find what it means to be a good mom and a good physician?
Yeah, that is so hard. As I said, I think there's an internal expectation that I have of myself to be 100 % there for my kid. And in medical training, one of the first things we learn is that the patient takes center stage and the patient's needs really trump any of our own when we're in residency and internship and even medical school.
it's really drilled into us that you have to take care of your patients first, right? You don't get time off until you take care of your patient. You don't get to go home to rest. You don't get to eat. You don't get to go to the bathroom until all the patients are taken care of and settled. And when you're in particularly a career field where that kind of devotion is expected from others or just from yourself to do a good job, you you can't do anything
really 100 % and you certainly can't do two things at the same time, 100%. So for me, I like to think of it as holding plates in the air or juggling. And I read a really interesting quote from someone at the Coca-Cola company that in an old job, one of my bosses had on his wall and it had to do with juggling balls in the air and really being able to know for yourself which of the balls are glass.
and which of them are rubber. So which of them, you end up dropping something, maybe I don't make it to a sports game, maybe I don't make it to a book club, maybe I don't get a call return to a parent until the next morning when it comes in late in the afternoon so I can get home to my kid, that those things bounce.
Speaker 1 (15:07.202)
But there are certain circumstances where the situation is glass. And for me, that's my family. So for me, ultimately, if there's a question and I have to decide I'm the only mom for my kid, I'm the only wife for my husband, and there are a lot of other doctors and professionals that work with me that support me that can help my patients if there's a need. So I really see
my family as the glass ball that can't get dropped. And so I think that's to me what it means to be a good mom is that I do balance things. I think I set a good example about being able to work and have a family and meet my personal needs, which is what I want my child to understand both for himself and in a future marriage, if that's what happens, to teach his kids when they're growing up, but that ultimately when the rubber hits the road,
I'm there for my family first.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Makes perfect sense Yeah, you are really Blowing me away here Sandra you this is really great. I think I in my head I was thinking you're like pro mom over here because you've been doing it for 13 years pro mom doctor What do you have to say to new moms? Like how can you help them? I guess get to these conclusions faster
Right. So what's nice in practice is I really try to give moms a lot of positive feedback. You know, as a pediatrician, obviously, I'm an expert, I'm seen as an expert in parenting, and I really try to let them know, you're doing a great job. This is hard. Nobody has the right answers. Even in medicine, there are some things that I would probably
Speaker 1 (17:06.316)
you know, die on the hill of, right? Things that aren't safe for kids, for example, putting your kid in a car seat, wearing a bicycle helmet. But almost everything else, just like in medicine, is an art more than a science. And so I do try to tell the moms in my practice, you know, there are lots of ways to get this right. So many ways. I think sometimes it's helpful to know that
At least in my experience and the experience of my friends with older kids, it in many ways doesn't get easier. Maybe a little bit more so with your second and third kid. If you end up having lots of children, sometimes you get to a point where you think, okay, well, I know how to do this, but man, every kid is different. And gosh darn, if one of those next kids won't throw you a curve ball and have totally different needs and not fit in with your usual parenting style. And
I really think, just emphasizing that everyone is struggling, right? Everyone thinks they're not a good enough mom, they're not a good enough doctor, they're not a good enough wife or partner. And I think, you know, to me, it's helpful to know that, but also to observe the really successful moms who do it lots of different ways.
So I think that's helpful, right? It's good to ask your friends. It's good to go to Google. It's good to ask your pediatrician what are some ideas. But ultimately, even I can't tell you what the right answer is for you and your kids and your family. That's a personal decision. And that's what I try to honor is that people get to make their own choices and that ultimately their choice is right because it's the choice they made.
sounds like the only real should here is that you should keep trying. Keep trying different things until something works out or matches for you in your stage of life. And as parents, we know that that's going to change tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (19:07.03)
Yes. Fail forward. Yeah.
Yes. That's great. Yeah, I'm really curious about something, which is you said that, you know, the kind of the things that mom guilt can make you do or the place that mom guilt can put your mind in is not really healthy for you, your child, and it's probably not great for your patients. So I sort of understand this at a high level. And I try to encourage my spouse sometimes to do things for herself.
not just for herself but for everybody around her and I'm wondering if that's just easier for me as a man but what do you do for yourself for self-care?
my gosh, healthcare is so important. And I think a lot of moms miss that, probably particularly professional moms who are trying to fill all the roles to the best of their ability. And as humans, we always see the gap more than the gain. That's just how it is to be human. Our brains are wired that way.
So it is so important to find ways to reward yourself. And one thing I wanna bring up is that unfortunately, I see a lot of folks reward themselves in ways that maybe aren't as helpful. So lots of moms who, know, enjoying alcohol sometimes is totally fine. I have no issue with drinking alcohol, but I think sometimes we go to alcohol, we go to
Speaker 1 (20:46.254)
food, when we're not hungry, we go to carbs, and we make decisions that ultimately we don't agree with, to try to kind of comfort ourselves or deal with the stress. so I really like to try to challenge, you know, myself and my friends and other moms, to find ways that are really healthy and that meet our goals for life, to be able to take care of ourselves, right? So
There's so many options out there. For me, I love a good spa treatment. whether that's something I actually schedule, like a massage or a facial, or whether that's something that I do at home, like a nice long bath, do you have some bath salts? Do you have some candles? Is there some way you can make the mood nice for yourself, even for just a short period of time?
Sometimes all we have as busy moms is 15 or 20 minutes, but we really have to intentionally use that time, that 15 or 20 minutes and insert it and sometimes even plan it in our day if we want to make room for it. And I think, you know, instead of chasing our tails and feeling like we're never done with everything, it's really important to take a pause. You know, a pause just walking outside,
people get a lot of positive reinforcement from nature often. So even if you're just able to take a walk in your neighborhood, if you're able to get away to a park, a forested area, somewhere you have a nice view, it doesn't have to be a day-long hike or a drive to get somewhere, but it could be. So nature's really helpful.
I think just giving ourselves positive reinforcement, allowing ourselves to think thoughts like, am really doing a good job. Like I really parented hard today. That conversation was really challenging, but I got it done. I think any of those can be self-care. And those are some of the things that I most commonly use for my own self-care. I love stretching. I love yoga. I love journaling.
Speaker 1 (23:02.006)
So lots of different options that for me also fit with the kind of person I'm wanting to be and wanting to become. So I don't move in a negative direction for myself, just trying to sort of get away from the pressure, the anxiety, the guilt. That's what my strategy has been.
Sounds terrific. Thank you for sharing that. I know that was that was personal So Sandra, this is gonna be my last question I'm really curious about if there's anything you would like the people around you maybe who have never experienced mom guilt or Really I'm kind of thinking about work in particular But is there anything you wish that people knew about mom guilt that maybe they just don't get
Yeah. I think one of the most life-changing experiences for me as a parent and a professional was coming to have friends and colleagues who have then become friends with whom I could be vulnerable enough to express these feelings, right? Professionals aren't supposed to have self-doubt.
Professionals aren't supposed to wonder if they're doing the right thing, not know what to do. Particularly as a pediatrician, people will say to me, oh, you must know exactly what to do all the time. You're pediatrician. You're the person I come to to ask what to do. It must be so easy for you to raise your own child. And what I tell them is it's not easier.
It's a totally different part of my brain that I use with my child. And I almost can't access the professional information if something comes up and is urgent. And so I think that's important. I tell them, you dream in black and white and my nightmares are in color because I know more about what bad thing could be happening. What could be killing him? You know, what's the worst possible circumstance is just really at hand. And if I
Speaker 1 (25:17.462)
chose to indulge in that thinking. I mean, that's not great for me, for one thing, which is why I say choose to indulge. But I think it's good to know that. And I think it's good to know that all of us struggle, right? That the patients coming into my office or seeing me externally parent, it's not as easy as it looks on the outside for me either.
And if we all got really vulnerable with each other, I think we would find so much similarity in the guilt, the anxiety, the fear, the self-doubt. And one of the best things that ever happened to me was meeting a lot of other professional moms and realizing I was not alone. I was not the only person that sometimes said, do I really even have a right to be?
you know, an associate medical director or a doctor. I mean, who am I to be telling other people what to do with their lives? Am I good enough? Am I smart enough? And the same questions come up with parenting. And I think the more that we can be vulnerable and we can be open about that vulnerability with each other as moms and as professionals, I think the better we all feel.
And the more supported we feel, and the more we feel like we don't just have to feel that way alone in a little hole, right? There's nothing wrong with us for having those thoughts and those feelings, and that we can overcome them. We can find sympathy. We can find empathy. We can find support in each other.
Speaking of support, I just want to thank you for being on the show today, Sandra. I'd also like to thank so many of the other physician moms who raised their hands. I sent out a quick request to our newsletter list and within a matter of hours I had five or six people raise their hands. So I'd like to give a special thank you to Abby and Allegra and Chathra and Christine and Julie.
Speaker 2 (27:25.614)
for their willingness to volunteer as part of this project, for helping us vet some of the questions that we asked here today. And Sandra, I know time is precious for you. You've made that abundantly clear here. I appreciate you carving out some time for us to help us understand what physician moms are going through and to help the other people that are listening that are on the same journey.
Thank you so much for having me. It was just delightful.
