Speaker 2 (00:01.038)
you
Welcome to the Physician Family Financial Advisors Podcast, where physician moms and dads turn today's worries about taxes, investing, and extra money into a comfortable feeling of financial security. I'm Ben Utley.
and I'm Nate Rennecke. Today's episode is called The Eternal Physician. What if you never ever retire? So, then by the title, we are doing something blasphemous today for financial planners, which is questioning the idea of retirement at all, right? And retirement is wrapped around work. And so we work with physicians every day that...
I've spent a long time getting set up to be physicians. Some of them really love it. We love our jobs. So I wanted to just start by hearing your thoughts about work and how retirement kind of wraps into that.
Yeah, I'm on my I'm on my third decade of work Maybe fourth decade if you count all the peaches that I sold the door door to door when I was in Texas as a kid But I believe a few things about work. I believe work should be emotionally and physically Satisfying I think you should get a good feeling at the end of the day. I believe that work should bring meaning and purpose to your life in
Speaker 1 (01:27.298)
Further than these things, I believe that if you're doing something that brings satisfaction to your life and meaning and purpose, and particularly if it's bringing good things to other people, that that's something you should not walk away from. So I've been questioning the idea of retirement. Personally, I have a retirement plan, but I don't have a plan to retire. I like what I do. I love what I do.
Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 (01:55.374)
Yeah. And there's some days I wake up, I'm like, Holy cow, I can't do this again. But most of the time I wake up and I'm, I'm excited to go to work. I'm excited to record a podcast. I'm excited to speak with a physician. So we speak with, I'm particularly excited to, you know, work with the folks who work here at physician family, but I love my work. And in times when I chronically dislike my work, I changed something about it to find a new love. And so I've kind of been thinking like, I don't, I don't think I really,
ever want to retire. I know for sure that I'm one of those people that, for example, I don't, I don't vacation well. About the third or fourth day vacation, I'm like thinking about work. I want to get back to work. I think, well, what would happen if I was on vacation for two weeks? I'm like, I would start a nonprofit. I'm pretty sure I'm that guy that would curl up and die if I, if I didn't have work, some kind of work, because it brings meaning and purpose to my life. And the life without meaning and purpose is depressive.
And we know how that works out. So, um, I intend to, to remain, to remain employed in some endeavor for the rest of my life. So, uh, and so you're like, well, why do you have a retirement plan? Well, I have a retirement plan in case that doesn't work out. I have a retirement plan in case I become disabled or, uh, or mentally incapacitated or in case something happens to a family member and I have to stop doing what I'm doing. You know, so I, I basically have a backup plan.
Right. But I don't dream of being the fat man in the BMW, you know, the top down wind blown through the area used to have, you know, because I worked my whole life, sweated, did something that I hated and now quote unquote free, you know, driving around in the red BMW. I don't want to be that guy. I want to be the guy who's happy doing what he does. And people look at me when I'm 75 and they're like, uh, so you retired. I'm like, no, no, I went to work yesterday. I'm going to work today. I'm going to go to work tomorrow. Cause I love work. I love it.
And that doesn't mean I'm a workaholic. You know, my kids would never say that about me. They've seen me work my whole life. I have a lot of balance and a lot of joy in what I do. I wish that for others. And that's why you and I are going to riff on the eternal physician. What it mean if a physician, physicians, chose to never retire. How would that look? How would life be different?
Speaker 2 (04:15.47)
Yeah, and I was just gonna say you said you don't vacation well, but I know you and I know you you rest well and I'm kind of the same I rest well as well and I kind of get antsy on vacation and it's weird because you talk to the average person and they That's a foreign concept to many people this idea that you enjoy work or that you don't need
a ton of vacations or that your vacations are short, mainly focused on rest and family rather than an escape. and you know, it's kind of strange. Sometimes I have to be careful because not everybody is so, so I guess you could say lucky or they haven't structured their life in a way that allows them to feel like this.
Hold on hold on. So so we're riffing here, right? We're we're off script because we don't have a script and I'm gonna come on key off something you said Okay vacation as a form of escape Mm-hmm. All right. Now when I when I hear escape I think escape from Alcatraz I think of you know a prison on a rock, right? Yeah and so I guess the first question I have for if our listeners is does vacation feel like an escape to you Or does it feel like you're recharging your battery? You know
And I guess if it feels like an escape, have to ask yourself, what the hell am I escaping from? What does my prison look like? you know, because you choose to walk into work every day. You choose to show up in the ER or the OR or the clinic or the classroom, you know, for our academic physicians. You choose this and you say, I'm forced to do this because I have student loans. Well, you can't really force people to do anything in the United States.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:57.932)
Yeah, that's for sure. But what do the walls of your prison look like if you feel like you need to escape? What constitutes that? Take a hard look at when you escape, you're walking away from. Look at your pain points. What is it about my job that I dislike? And I guess if you're thinking, okay, well, I'm going to do this for 10, 15 more years, then I'm going to knock off. And you don't have to, you're doing your sentence, right? But if you view
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (06:27.582)
work as life and life as work, but work is not working for your life. And you have to look around and go, okay, if I'm to do this for another 40 years or 50 years, how would I change things? What would I do different?
Yes. Yeah. And we see it all the time with physicians who are essentially, I mean, it's a common topic, but physician burnout. And it just, it really makes me sad. mean, because I see the physician I'm speaking with, I can tell that they do enjoy some parts of their job, but it's the wear and tear on their mind, body and spirit to do it so much, so often.
in all in the name of I have to for to support the family or to pay off this debt or to retire. And it's just really difficult for me to see and imagine a world where a physician works that hard for that long and then at 60 just turns it off.
Well, I wonder what life would look like if, you know, if, our physician or being very intentional about my life, our, our weighing, you know, I have a day at work on a way, you know, what worked for me and what didn't work for me. And I wonder, I wonder how I might change. And so I can, I can think. So if, if I'm basically planning to work indefinitely, yeah, I'm planning to work until I'm in my seventies.
You know, I think, uh, physically that would be difficult for some docs. You know, just stand in the OR when you're in your seventies. mean, if you look around and nobody else is doing that, the chances of you doing it are pretty low, but you can also look around and see physicians that are in their seventies that are still practicing either because they want to, or because they have to. And like, what are they doing and how happy are they? You know, and, other ones that are happy, what are they doing? I think that part of the, the,
Speaker 1 (08:26.946)
The joy of practicing medicine is to know that you did something good at the end of the day, that you helped somebody. I know occasionally you help people and they actually sue you for it. But, you know, on many days you have the satisfaction of knowing that you did a good job. I think that contributing to medicine, contributing to general healthcare is part of what makes life as a physician satisfying. So if I'm looking now at my 50 year career as a physician, you know, from my thirties to my eighties,
You know, maybe I'm that hard charging doc with a scalpel in hand that gets up at the crack of dawn every morning does, does work in the O R but maybe that's a 20 year stint. And then for, you know, 10 or 20 years I do something else. I teach or I have a lecture. then beyond that, I do something else. I remain as a physician or remain at work, but I'm no longer, you know, the hard charging doc. doing something that's age appropriate.
Okay, so we're doing thought experiment, right? Right. So I'm gonna reframe this or say this question a different way and maybe we'll see what comes up. What if you literally couldn't retire? It was not an option for whatever reason. You cannot retire. What would you do? Like how would you manage the difficulties of being a physician in today's day and age? Still make enough?
But like how would you structure your life? What do you see with physicians?
Well, I'm thinking, so admittedly, you know, I'm not a physician. you know, I've, I've worked with hundreds of them. I've spoken with hundreds of them, but I'm not, I'm not in your shoes. You know, I don't know exactly what your walk is like, but I know what it's like to, to work in a difficult environment. And so if somebody said, Hey, you know, you're conscripted, you're never going to get to retire. Then I'd be like,
Speaker 1 (10:23.82)
Okay, maybe I'm not going to get to retire, but you can't work me at this pace. No, I don't belong to you. I belong to me. I think I would find some way to reduce the pace.
Hmm... longevity.
Longevity. Yeah. And you know, as I think about this from a kind of physician, mom and dad perspective, the most valuable years of your life as a parent are probably the first 10 years. Yeah. Clearly the first six, cause you're keeping your children alive, but you're also teaching them values. And then when they're kindergartners, you know, that those are the wonder years. Those are the amazing years of being a parent and they get into middle school and they need you a little bit less. You know, high school, maybe.
you know, maybe they'll give you the time of day when they're in college, they're gone. And when they're adults, you talk to them on the phone. So, those first 10 years are some of the most valuable years as a parent. They're also some of the most valuable years from a financial standpoint, because the money that you save then will grow and grow and grow over the years. your, it's your longest dated money. But I guess if I wasn't super worried about growing, growing, then
I wouldn't have to invest so much and I could probably spend more time with my kiddos. Right. I knew I was never going to retire, if I knew I was always going to be able to pay my bills.
Speaker 2 (11:45.486)
Yeah, and it seems like you know and that this is This is a positive but a good thing for physicians is that you can certainly save and Work less. I mean it is possible. It's all about You structure your life. I mean that is certainly possible and What you've just described is essentially trading Money for I mean the important stuff really. Yeah, I mean
yeah, I-
Speaker 2 (12:14.51)
the things that money cannot buy. And that seems so cliche and everyone says that and then we have this culture where, yeah, yeah, you say that but then in the back of your mind, you're right back to work. But if you could just talk to anybody that has grown children, they will plead with you, plead with you that this is the most important time and not to take it for granted.
True, true. And you know, when you think about physicians, mean, there are some that earn less, but all physicians as a class earn more than the average person does. average people do get to retire. Some of them do get to send their kids to college and average people are by definition at the average level of happiness. So, you know, as you, as you begin to think about,
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (13:07.5)
Like, okay, I'm a physician. The chances of me being financially well off are high just because of the earning capacity. You you have the stuff that it takes to make this. Okay. If you assume that for a moment, then you can begin to think about, what are the things that money cannot buy? I can't buy well adjusted kids. I can't buy a good marriage. I cannot buy my physical health. I cannot buy my mental health.
These are things that make people truly wealthy. know, the, the, the true feeling of richness where, you know, you could be eating beans out of a can, but feel super happy because you're doing it on your own terms and you're doing it healthy. Right.
Most of the world is eating beans out of a can and buying large, happy.
this is true and maybe they're not gonna live as long as the physician is or as folks in United States are but it's not necessarily how long you live, it's how well you live, it's the length of your life span times the number of happy days I would say defines a quality life.
I'm trying to think, I'm trying to get in the mind of some of the people we speak with every day. And one, I know for certain how many times I've heard you say it, how many times I've said it, just, getting them to just think about the idea of taking your foot off the gas just a little bit during these important years. And you just hear the deep breath, that would be great. As if it's not possible, but it totally is. It is possible. We've seen people do it. But I'm trying to imagine, you know, physicians work,
Speaker 2 (14:44.256)
is extremely important. It's valuable work for our society. And do you think that the reason that many physicians work so hard is because of that? Like you go into the ER and you're like, how could I relax, you know, you know, not work on Tuesdays and miss this important work?
it.
Speaker 1 (15:11.852)
And how will the world make it without me? Yeah. I've heard, I've heard it said that the graveyard is, is filled with people that were irreplaceable. So, you know, the, the world will move on without you. we will miss you, but, worse, we would miss you if you, if you didn't, know, if you didn't really seize the day.
You know, um, my spouse is a therapist and she kind of falls victim to this sometimes where she's a really hard worker and she, she just feels like she's making a huge difference, which she is. And I have to remind her sometimes that if you keep working this hard, uh, you'll be able to serve, you know, an extra five clients, let's say this week. But what about between ages, you know, 60 and 70, when you serve zero clients, cause you're so tired.
Yeah.
the longevity actually helps, I would argue that it helps the world more.
And I would say it helps finances too. you know, I mean the ultimate, the ultimate plan for retirement is to have money no matter what you do. If you have a little backup plan and then you have the ability to continue working, I mean like.
Speaker 1 (16:21.75)
I wouldn't be so worried about inflation because I'd still have a job. I wouldn't be worried about the cost of healthcare because I'd still have health insurance through my employer. know, it's like a lot of these worries melt away when you still have a job. For example, investing, know, stock market crash, no worries. I'm still, I'm still working, right? I'm not depending on my portfolio.
Yeah. It seems like this idea that we're exploring, if it's possible for anybody, it's possible for physicians. And it's also possible to retire extremely early, which is kind of the thing that everybody, I don't know, for whatever reason, people think that that's what they want. I'm not convinced.
That goes against my beliefs. You know, I stated at the top that it's my podcast, it's our podcast, we can say what we believe, right? But as I said, you know, I believe work should be satisfying. And if you're seeking that early retirement, it's like, what were you doing to make the money before you retired? I mean, what are you retiring to? If life as a physician is satisfying, why would you quit? Why would you want to retire early?
I mean, who the hell came up with that idea? Some somebody who's probably miserable, you know, probably somebody who walked in the ER every day and became jaded, couldn't take it and just said, you know, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm looking for a way out. I want to get rich. don't have to do this anymore. know, it's a hard grind, but you know, I think, I think for the rest of us, I think there's a way for moderation. There's a mental path. There's a way to.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (17:48.782)
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (17:59.33)
to be able to enjoy life and do the things that we love and work longer. So, you know, as we said on our very first podcast, go back and listen to it. It's should physicians set themselves on fire? F-I-R-E. I believe in financial independence. I believe we should all have something to fall back on. But I think that retiring early is, you know, I'd say it's for the birds, but birds never retire. There's nothing in nature that retires. I mean, look out your window and count all the animals you can see that retire. None of them. They all work until they drop dead.
Mm-hmm.
Or eaten by something. I youth in Asia sent someone to eat me, right?
And if
Yeah, I mean, I have seen too many times people that retire to nothing. They wither away really quickly and it's yeah, there's something in us that that that finds meaning and happiness out of important work. So the what I believe is that you should build your life around work like work should be a part. You said this to work should be a part of life to the point where you enjoy it. And if you don't enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (19:05.506)
I mean, you have a lot of hard work to do, but it's not the work you're thinking. It's making your job fit your life so that you do enjoy it. And by the way, what a terrific lesson to teach your children. That work can be meaningful. And I cannot, I mean, I think about even people in my family that I'm growing up and they talk about work as if it's the worst thing ever.
the hate work, they can't wait to be home and that's just really common in our country. People, it's okay to hate the thing you do at least eight hours a day, five days a week.
That is a tough lesson to teach your kiddos. Yeah.
You know, it seems like the only way to do it is by actually doing it. That's how you teach them. You live a life where you find meaning and happiness out of work.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:00.674)
I was out to brunch with my spouse just a few weekends ago and we kind of looked at each other and we said, this is kind of weird because not everyone around us feels like this, but is it okay that we both just really love our work? And she looked at me, she's like, I've been thinking the same thing. I really love working. just thought, maybe that's just okay. And then funny enough, a couple of weeks later you said, hey, we should talk about this idea of never retiring.
I thought, yeah, I just talking about this. mean, it is it's a weight off your shoulders to when you could admit it that you've created this life that includes work as if that, know, some people might think that's bad, but I don't think so.
Yeah, well, let's talk about maybe some of the practical financial aspects of kind of never retiring. So the first thing I think is, so if you're kind of never retiring, but you want a safety net, if you want some financial independence, I won't say retiring, but if you want some financial independence you can fall back on, then you gotta save something, right? Right. Maybe you save 10 % of your after-tax income or your pre-tax incomes, not a huge difference, so you save something.
But now you have more time, right? Because you don't have to work as much. so now you're, instead of having to have 10 year mortgage payment plan, a 15 year mortgage payment plan, you can have the 30 year mortgage plan, which brings more cashflow. And because you're working less, you're paying less income taxes, which means that of every dollar that you earn, you actually get to enjoy more of those dollars.
you get to more utility out of because you're paying less in taxes.
Speaker 2 (21:46.764)
Mm-hmm.
means you're more available to loved ones, perhaps if they're, if they're buying into your vision. if you're being savvy with your money, it probably means that you're spending less. Right? I mean, if you're, if you're really satisfied, like you don't need to take an expensive vacation, right? It's like, why, why would you leave something that you love? Why, what, what is out there that's not in here? Right? And so you're spending more time where you're at.
Teachers are a classic example of this. They love what they do. They don't make a whole lot, but there are lot of happily retired teachers. And I think it's because they get satisfaction on the job. And teachers pay less taxes than physicians do.
Right.
So less taxes, what immediate financial changes can you imagine, Nate, that would come from a decision like that?
Speaker 2 (22:40.782)
Well, one big benefit with investing and when you're talking about money in this situation is extending your time horizon. I think one of the biggest obstacles to get over if you're planning on working a shorter period of time is just you don't have a long time to invest. So the money that you put in, even if it's less upfront, right? Let's say 30 years old, you're really working hard to
invest so that, you know, like your money can double multiple times, let's say over your investment time horizon. If you just extend the backend by 10 more years, it'd be as if you're investing in your twenties. And we know that, with compound interest, how valuable that is. So, that that's a huge one. The second one is it's not, not in a bad way that the word expensive has it a negative connotation, but.
It's expensive to retire early. Our system isn't set up for people to retire in their fifties. You start to get all the benefits from, you know, Medicare and, you know, your social security money and everything comes in the later years of your life. So you just have, I mean, it just, it becomes almost, almost, mean, I hate to this, almost easy to retire late for physicians. You basically,
Put in your money at your work, save on some taxes, save even more on taxes, and you have a longer time to invest. Let the market do its thing.
Yeah, what's crazy about that is with a longer time horizon, you can take more risk. And if there is a loss in there, I mean, if you're, if you're working eternally, then like, who cares? Right? I mean, the, the, the loss, the decline of market value just gives you an opportunity to snap up cheaper shares and, and continue to let it ride. I mean, exactly. I, as I think about this as,
Speaker 1 (24:44.622)
I mean, imagine how much money someone in that situation would have when they actually do pass. Someone who worked their whole lives and did a little savings their whole lives. I could see somebody like to having a huge pile of money. And that really begs a couple of questions. You know, if you want your children to have that money, then conceivably they could not work, which causes me great concern.
Right? Cause I believe that work brings meaning and satisfaction to life. So if your kids aren't going to get it, you know, but it's stacked up, like, what could you do with it? Right? mean, then you have some options. guess there's, there's always charity, you know, you could give money away, but you know, if I were in a boat like that, I'd begin to think like, okay, money, money has some power in it. What, can I do with it? That would.
they would change some things. what do I hate about the world that I like to see change? What do I love that I'd like to see more of? You know, what can I do with some of this power that I've built up over the years?
The way that I see this situation and all the way around, not that you're being careless and not working because work brings meaning. So you're still working hard, but you can give more for longer. You can give more to your family now rather than waiting until your kids are moved out. You can give more to society with your work, but also with your money.
Yeah, I guess, guess this even, you know, as I think about, so we just kind of talked about estate planning. We talked about taxes and investing. I think I would think about college, right? So a lot of kids work their butts off to get into college. Then they take a gap year so they can live like human beings and explore things. This kind of obviates the whole gap year for college. mean, if you're not having to put in 60 and 70 hour weeks, you know, if you're, if you're able to travel a little bit more with your kids, it's kind of like.
Speaker 1 (26:42.882)
Maybe you don't need a gap year. Maybe you show kids life as you go along, rather than teaching them that you work as hard as you can at school. So you can work as hard as you can at work so that you can, you know, die with a lot of toys. I mean, it would bring us back into our kids' lives in a more meaningful way so that we're more there for them.
and we're teaching them more about life, you know, using our values, which is kind of every parent's privilege.
Yeah, I think that is that time with them that time attention and experience with them is so much more valuable than I don't I hate to call it toys, but that's the giving them stuff. I mean, that's really at the end of the day, I had to do some soul searching about that before, too. That's for me. The kids don't know the difference. They know when you're around versus when you're not around. That's what they know.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:43.374)
That's true. Yeah. My, my Angelou said that, people won't remember what you did for them. They'll remember how you made them feel. And I think, I think gifts are one of those things where there's a lot of joy, but, you know, usually it wears off pretty quickly because it's a thing. when I talk with clients about, know, their, what, what has brought them the most joy in life, usually they talk about time that they spent with their parents, maybe on a trip or.
you know, doing something together, you building something together if it's, if it's boys sometimes. and that's, that requires time, right? And, when we're working, we're trading our, our time and our effort for money. Maybe it's time to trade some money for time. buying, buying those things that money can't buy, you know, it's our, it's our other currency. It's our, it's our energy. You know, Nate, as I, as I listened to his talk about this, I'm, I'm a little concerned cause you and I have been riffing.
You
Speaker 1 (28:39.438)
we're, way off scripts cause there's no script for this. You know, we're kind of chartering some new ground here, but I'm also concerned about how a physician might feel if they're listening to this and they're feeling, about, about the work that they've been doing or the way that they've been leading their lives or maybe some anger or some frustration, about that. I'm wondering if you,
if we have some kind words for them that would kind of soften some of that. Cause I know that for some, is going to be a new thought or a new conversation. You and I've had this conversation over the years, but this might be brand new. And sometimes when you wake up and you see a different way, it's easy to feel like, you know, kind of feel stupid or angry.
Well, yeah, I do have some some thoughts on that. mean, I want to say this while it doesn't seems obvious to us, it's not. I mean, we've been riffing on this for years now. This is a radical idea.
Yeah.
Truly. mean, if you think about this, this is a new, it's like come back around. I mean, my grandfather did not have the option to spend more time at home. I mean, to pay the bills, he had to work like crazy.
Speaker 1 (30:05.742)
This is the whole idea of retirement is an idea that hasn't even been with us a hundred years.
So it is a new, it's a, it's this idea of, of not retiring is kind of coming full circle and we're experimenting with it with the idea of retirement really. So, but most physicians all they've ever known it's, it's this idea of working really hard because your parents or your grandparents worked really hard. you.
your physician culture dictates it.
Yes. So I would not feel, or I would plead with physicians not to feel guilty about it because it's all, you know, how to do anything meaningful in life. It's just a work so hard. The whole, your whole culture is surrounded around that. So basically what we're asking you to do is be weird.
Ha ha ha ha.
Speaker 2 (30:56.43)
I mean, that's the, we're asking you to be a weirdo at work and that's not going to be received well. And it takes time and it takes thought and effort into molding this idea into your life. And, know, working less might still be working 50 hours a week for some people, you know, that doesn't mean you, you get lazy or something. So this is just.
encouragement to say that you can do it financially if you're feeling the pinch with your loved ones. I mean you can do it.
And this is also a thought experiment. It's a thought experiment for us and probably many of our listeners. So we're not necessarily recommending this. We are, we are literally just playing with an idea and we're inviting you to play with it too. So we're coming up on time. So, here's, here's what, here's the actionable item from this. is, this is my hope that after you've listened to this podcast tomorrow, when you show up at work, just ask yourself,
What would it be like if, if today was like every day for me, if every day I had to, I had to show up and do this, how do I feel about that? Just, just ask that one question of yourself at the end of tomorrow. Say, how do I feel about today? And what would it be like if I knew I had to do this forever? Experiment. Think about it yourself. And I would greatly love to hear from you. I'd like to hear from you as a listener.
whether you're happy or sad about this, if you find it thought provoking. You know, we sit in front of the mic and we talk every couple weeks, but we'd like to hear your voice as well. Is this a stupid idea, the idea of an eternal physician?
Speaker 1 (32:46.126)
Or is it something that you see is kind of novel or something that will change the way that you think about work and life and family and money? We want to hear from you. So please write to us. You can write to us at podcast at physicianfamily.com. promise we're not going to give you a come on to be a client. We truly want to hear from you. want to talk with you. You can visit us at physicianfamily.com slash podcast, or you can record your thoughts. Drop us a line at 503-308-8733.
The number again is 503-308-8733.
Thank you for listening to the Physician Family Financial Advisors Podcast. Is there a question you would like answered on our next show? Go to PhysicianFamily.com to record your question. While you're there, sign up for our newsletter and gain access to tools you can use to turn worries about taxes, investing, and extra money into a lifelong feeling of financial security. That's PhysicianFamily.com.
