Speaker 1 (00:01.634)
Welcome to the Physician Family Financial Advisors Podcast, where physician moms and dads turn today's worries about taxes, investing, and extra money into a comfortable feeling of financial security. I'm Ben Utley.
And I'm Nate Rennecke. Today's topic is on student loans. Why physicians should not refinance their student loans.
Nate, you're our in-house student loan expert. you know, so I guess the question that I would have if I was a physician kind of approaching this problem is like, isn't it really just all about rate? I mean, isn't it, you shouldn't I just compare the rates on the student loans that I've got and compare the rates on refinancing them? And like, it's a slam dunk, right? mean, anybody can see that, you know, rate A is higher than rate B. Anybody can see that you can't trust the government. I mean, like you should just refinance, right?
you
Yeah, I get the don't trust the government a lot or just don't have confidence in the system a lot. That's not really the case. It's not all about the rate. And even if you're not going through a government program, there's an argument to say it's not all about the rate. When I first started working on with physicians on their loans several years ago, it did feel like that. And it was less
Speaker 2 (01:21.39)
clear as to why you should at least consider keeping your loans with the government. So many people didn't because it didn't seem like there was any risk, no risk with refinancing. And the narrative was if there's a better rate refinance.
I don't usually think of refinancing loans as a risky thing. Like I think of making an investment as a risky thing and jumping off cliffs is a risky thing. I mean, refinancing student loans, that's, mean, in that kind of like a slam dunk.
Maybe risk is the wrong word, but there's some opportunity cost with whatever decisions you make, which is really the risk is of just being, I guess, upset with which choice you made if it was the wrong one.
So a little look back regret like coulda, coulda woulda, shoulda. And I know you're, I know you're fully grounded in econ cause that's your, that's your field of study, but can you break down opportunity costs for us? Cause that's right. I took one econ class when I was in college and they mentioned that and I'm not sure I scored an A on that test.
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (02:21.965)
Right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:27.946)
Right. So to put it really, really plainly, opportunity cost is what you could have had if you made a different choice. So let's say you had a hundred dollars to make an investment and you chose to invest in Apple stock. The opportunity cost is what you could have gotten with that money if you invested anywhere else. And it's really hard to identify exactly what that
what your opportunity costs that you lost or maybe that you might have gained is in any scenario except with student loans because really when you refinance it's like there's only one other option which was not refinancing so it's because you kind of get it shoved down your throat exactly whether or not you made the right choice.
So it's like the next best alternative when you're making a choice. And there's a chance that you could be making the wrong choice, I guess. So that's kind of the risk, huh?
Yeah, exactly. And with student loans, or I guess with other decisions in life, many people just don't even know what their opportunity cost was. So it is not as painful. But with student loans, recently, if you, let's say, almost qualified for public service loan forgiveness, but then refinance and now you're out of the game with public service loan forgiveness, then you're out.
and you kind of look back on that as a huge lost opportunity and it can kind of haunt you.
Speaker 1 (03:55.95)
What's interesting, you say game because honestly it does seem like a game. It's like hide and go seek with the refinance people, you know, the student loan companies and the government and you know, the Biden ministrated just administration, uh, you know, kind of changing the rules on a two, three monthly basis. mean, like, is this a game that doctors can win?
It doesn't feel like it when they change the rules on you all the time. It really doesn't feel like it. But there's one thing that I have seen minimize this feeling of regret, which is to essentially stay with this kind of keep playing the game, keep playing the hide and seek game and keep your flexibility. what I mean by that is as soon as you refinance your student loans to a private company,
you're no longer under the government's umbrella where they can at least appear to save the day.
Is that the same as consolidating? Because I hear consolidating and refinancing used interchangeably. What's the difference?
It's not the same. So consolidating in the private world a lot of times, it just means refinancing everything into one loan. And so it is in the private world, meaning imagine you go to your brick and mortar bank. That's not where people usually go for their student loans, but they, they, could. So you go to your brick and mortar bank and you refinance all of your federal student loans to your new, to your new bank.
Speaker 2 (05:29.524)
and they take all the loans and they just pile it into one big pile so you have one payment. Technically they call that debt consolidation. Because they consolidate all your loans into one payment. And so these get confused because that is debt consolidation. But then there is consolidation with the government which is sort of the same where they consolidate all your loans into one pile except you don't lose all of the benefits. In fact, you can gain some benefits by consolidating with the government.
So when people are talking about consolidation with student loans, generally they're talking about consolidating their federal loans.
I'm getting the impression that it's, there's more to it than just the rate. What all is there to it that I might be missing?
Yeah. So when you say the rate, right, when you say if it is a better rate, take it sort of thing. That implies or what that means in practice is that you are actually taking your loans from your federal loans and taking them to the bank, making them private. And you lose a lot to get that private loan. So what you gain in a better interest rate, hopefully
you lose in the form of mainly flexibility. So what that flexibility is, is you have the flexibility to potentially go for this forgiveness program. So once you're at the bank and your loans are private, you no longer are eligible for any forgiveness program.
Speaker 1 (07:05.346)
So the banks are not going to forgive this stuff for us.
Yeah, it's you're in the private world now. You made an agreement with them that you're going to pay back your loans. Okay. And the thing about the forgiveness program and that most physicians can't see when they, when they kind of try to predict what their life is going to be like, which we all know how that goes, you know, we're not very good predictors of that is that they assume they're, they're going to have the same job or be going down the same path for the long haul. Sometimes they are.
But what they don't assume, and sometimes incorrectly as we've seen recently, what they don't assume is that the government may not stay down the same path.
huh.
Yeah, they've changed the rules also a few times trying to actually improve the forgiveness programs. And what that means is if they improve it so much so that it can entice a physician to switch to a job that qualifies, then they can still get their loans forgiven later on down the line. So you lose that flexibility to potentially get back into the PSLF sort of, I guess, game.
Speaker 2 (08:19.63)
And just to save on your rate and you kind of have to decide if that that trade-off is worth it
So I'm giving up some flexibility, but it's not really clear to me like what I'm giving up. Like clearly I'm giving up the ability to get in and out of the PSLF game. But you know, let's say that I'm a ENT and I'm in private practice and I'm a shareholder, you know, like I'm never gonna go back into the public sector. I'm never gonna qualify for PSLF. What else? Is there other things that I'm giving up when I refinance my federal debt into private debt?
Yeah, there's a few other things and these are more a little less clear in practice, but most private companies will not offer things like forgiving your loans if you become disabled. So there's one. Some do actually. There's only a handful of them, but the government, once again, it kind of has across the board with a lot of their benefits. If you become fully disabled,
If you die, you get your loans forgiven and you start to get benefits from the government. So that's a huge thing.
Let's say I'm that ENT and I refinance and I die. Do my student loans, do I still gotta pay those off even though I'm dead? How does that work?
Speaker 2 (09:45.256)
It depends. it does go to your debt, does go to your estate. in that situation, you would technically, your assets would pay off your student loans and sometimes it doesn't. Depends on which company you choose. You have to be careful.
so I can't even escape my student loans in death.
Right. Many times you can. Sometimes you can. Yeah, it does. You know, it's things like that that you don't really think about. You're just thinking, how can I get this 6.8 % interest rate down to a 3 % interest rate? And when the gap is that big, a lot of folks decide, well, you know, that's a pretty big gap. 4 % on a couple hundred thousand dollar of loans. Yeah, I'm willing to risk it. But now and as
sucks
Speaker 2 (10:31.512)
time goes on, rates go up and down, and as rates go up, that gap gets smaller, and the opportunity of switching to a private loan becomes less beneficial. It's less juicy. You kind of need to consider these things.
It's less juicy.
Speaker 1 (10:50.798)
Because loans are like stakes and when you cut them up, no, I'm just kidding.
Yeah, and so, you know, this is these are the big the big things to consider the government changes its mind all the time
All right, so prove it to me. Tell me, tell me a story about this.
Sure, so I have seen a physician who previously this is how I have a bunch of these stories and I have another one I want to tell today, but the one that came to mind is we have a I have two psychiatrist stories Okay, so one psychiatrist was never thought that they would go to
to the nonprofit world. Yep, so they just thought they're gonna be in their private practice forever. And they had an extremely low tolerance for debt. So they just hated having student loans. So I thought, and by the way, in their residency, had a lot of, they qualified for the program.
Speaker 1 (11:37.742)
The nonprofit world, yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:57.742)
So they've made some of those 120 qualifying payments before they even became a full-on attending.
Right. And then in the process of kind of figuring out their qualified payments, they figured out, they found out that some of their loans or some payments didn't qualify and they're kind of disheartened by that. So they decided to refinance and to aggressively try and pay off their debt. And they have a couple hundred thousand dollars in debt still left over to this day, but they're working really hard to pay down their debt because they just hate looking at it. And then when this
Biden and his administration sort of tried to fix the program really, because our PSLF program is really hard to understand. It was even harder to understand. And, you know, 10 years ago when no one knew how to do the right thing, get on the right payment program, go to the right employer, nobody knew. They said, look, we're going to go back and we're going to, if you were at least at the right employer, all those payments are going to count.
When in the past, you also had to be on the right payment plan. That was new. This is the waiver that's going on right now.
Like the stars all have to, would have had to have aligned back then.
Speaker 2 (13:15.726)
Yes, and now it's just...
Right job, right kind of loan, right kind of payment, know, just hold your job. Just, just so yeah.
Yep. And so then they came back, which I actually think is a really good thing. They essentially admitted a mistake and said, Hey, we're going to go back to what the spirit of this was. If you worked in the, a nonprofit, you should get these payments qualified. And this person who refinanced their loans, the psychiatrist who refinanced their loans, they would have gotten forgiveness, but they jumped the gun. They, and you know, at the time it seemed like a good decision because they lowered, they wanted to lower their rate.
and now they're stuck paying off their loans.
Ouch. Okay, so like, give me the bottom line. What's the damage? How much student loans would have been forgiven and how much are not now forgiven?
Speaker 2 (14:07.534)
Yeah, so the amount of loans that was going to be forgiven was I think it was in the neighborhood of 250 250 000 mistake
Okay. That's 250,000 after tax dollars. And so if we're, if we're backing that through to a pre-tax calculation, and we just assume like a third for taxes, FICA, FUTA, FUTA, federal, state, all that good stuff, then that means that they would have had to earn about $375,000. Right. And so.
You got it. Which is probably more than a well-paid psychiatrist's entire year.
Yeah, so that's like, that's literally working like an extra couple years as a psychiatrist, which, you know, I know a lot of psychiatrists really like their job and they want to work long in, I wouldn't think they want to work for free. So that's the equivalent of working another year or two, like all year long, not ever taking a penny out. It's like, you're basically kind of volunteering for the government in a way.
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (15:08.724)
Yeah, which is not not terrible, you know, it's just a lot of people volunteer for the government, but they do it voluntarily. You know, they know they're doing it. I think that in this case, you know, maybe they knew they were making that choice, but ultimately that was the end result of the decision, it sounds like.
Right. Yeah. And I, and I hate to even, you know, drag them down too much because they made the best decision they could at the time. And if you continue to make decisions in this sort of world and the finance world and taking chances when you can and sort of this only looking at what you could lose when you make decisions, you're going to be a stressed out doctor who never makes their mind up. Right. And you just stick with this, these government loans, which have a really high interest rate.
So I see this same thing in the investment world. It's like this thing has this rate, that thing has that rate, A is better than B, so I'm going to go with A. And this looks like one of those situations where, I mean, it's very satisfying to look and say, the price of this good is $5, the price of that good is $4. They're the same, and therefore I'm going to go with the $4 good. I see physicians making this same kind of logic error as they evaluate investments.
particularly things that have yield, you know, it's like this has a yield of X, Y, and Z. And in both of these cases, it seems like there's just way more to the story than a single number.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that number's not even... You can do your best at the time to analyze what the number might be. The key is to understand that there's a decent chance you'll be wrong. And if you are wrong, how bad will it hurt to be wrong?
Speaker 1 (16:50.882)
and is it recoverable?
Yeah, is it recoverable? Okay, I'm glad you said that. So here's a takeaway. Like this is all sort of don't make the wrong choice, know, doom and gloom. At the end of the day, this psychiatrist is going to be, they're going to do great. They're on track. to track for college. They will. They'll be fine. It's still really painful. But at the end of the day, they made this choice with their eyes wide open and it just happened to, you know, the coin happened to land on the other side.
return
Speaker 1 (17:19.34)
Right, they did the best thing they could at the time with the information that they had and it just didn't work out.
Exactly. And that's what many, many physicians did even just four years ago.
But this decision that this person made, it strikes me that when you're making that decision, you have the choice to not make that decision. with, you know, if you stick with your federal direct loans and you stick with the PSLF game, then you get several bites at the apple. Like you can make that decision to refinance these public student loans into private student loans really at any time.
Right. So guess it's just a pressure of rising rates might be something that would cause a person to jump, but it seems like, uh, you have a, not only do have flexibility being a, you know, a PSLF and a debtor, but you have flexibility in terms of how you manage these, these products. If you stick with PSLS. And I guess the other thing I would say is there's a middle path, right? I mean, it's not all or none. You could refinance some of your loans, maybe your most expensive loans or, know, your least favorite loans or something like that. Um,
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (18:26.89)
It's not all or none, right?
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's true You know, people are in a situation for a variety of reasons where some loans They have more credit toward public service loan forgiveness than other loans and you can consolidate you there's different strategies you can use but sometimes those quote unquote other loans Really they've just not eligible or they have even higher rates. I've I have done several times I've helped physicians get
qualified for PSLF on a big chunk and then refinance the other chunk. It's kind of tricky, but you certainly can do that. And the middle path really just means this, you understanding as a physician that no matter which path you choose, you can be successful with money. So you have to realize you stay with PSLF, you can do that. You refinance the private world, you can do that. You wait to see what happens, tread water for a little bit.
See what how goes with your private practice job for a couple years and then make a decision
So this is not going to be something that's going to be fatal for someone like, you know, a terrible divorce or running their practice into the ground. It's like, could be a major speed bump, setback, but it's not necessarily going to be a deal breaker.
Speaker 2 (19:46.656)
Right. And the last one that isn't a deal breaker is if you get stuck with a high interest rate on these loans. It can feel painful. And everyone's all it's same with mortgages. Everyone always thinks, well, remember when rates were fill in the blank? Well, you know, that's the cost of keeping your flexibility sometimes. But what rates are now almost seven percent for student loans and for federal loans? That's a big rate.
but it doesn't make an enormous difference if you just tread water for a year or two. Right?
Okay, so I want to, I want to reel this in a little bit because so far we've talked about this really nuanced decision and how there's all the risk and there's opportunity costs and scary, scary stuff. But you help people make this decision all the time. And so I know there's kind of a way to proceed on this stuff. So, you know, if I'm, if I'm doing this on my own, how do I approach this decision? Like what are the logical steps I need to go through to evaluate this?
this opportunity or risk for myself and decide.
Mm-hmm. So I'll frame the question in a specific way, which is how do I know when to refinance? Yeah, the topic is when not to refinance. We kind of talked about why you shouldn't. But how do you know when to actually pull the trigger and do it? You decide this by being, I guess, very confident that PSLF is totally off the table for you.
Speaker 2 (21:22.584)
So you are a private practice physician to the end.
You bought in, you paid your six figures, you bought in, you did your blood, sweat and tears. You love your partners. You love the place where you live. No chance that you're ever going to do anything else. you're, you're, you're locked into private practice.
And usually this, I would say nine out of 10 times, still every once in a while I'm surprised, but nine out of 10 times when we're going through this decision making process, I will ask that question and I can tell right away when the decision is made. Like they don't even want to know the numbers. I am private practice. you move on to the next thing. Box check. Yeah, box check. So you look at...
rates at that point, now we're getting down to numbers. If the rate in the private world is better than your rate with the government, that's box number two. you want to be able
A better? A little better? Like how much better? Is that like something we consider as just better is better?
Speaker 2 (22:29.484)
Well, in recent history, it's always been a lot better. Even now, I would say it's still a lot better. If it gets to the point, which I could see potentially happening, where it's only a little better, you have to kind of circle back to the first thing we talked about, which is, you want the flexibility? Do you want the chance that the government forgives, let's say randomly, forgives all these doctors loans, which in the past,
that hasn't looked very good because they're looking at low income families to forgive those loans.
So maybe if there's like a percentage point or less difference, that was, when you would begin to look at this and go, Maybe I should think about the flexibility here.
Even just the flexibility of one of the other things I missed was forbearance. So I've had physician moms just want to take a year off of work and their student loan payments are a few thousand dollars and they just want to not pay for 12 months.
Yeah, they want to take some time with the kiddos.
Speaker 2 (23:35.638)
Yeah, you cannot do that in the private world. So go back to square one if the rates, if that rate difference is really small. then it's really, the other pieces are kind of more straightforward, but just checking the boxes. Can you take a credit hit at this point? Sometimes young docs are trying to get into houses and probably shouldn't mess around with your student loans or you're trying to get a house.
So when you say credit hit, mean, you're talking that in the refinance process, there will be a hard pull on their credit that will, that will leave a mark on their credit. And so you don't want to do that while you're trying to buy or refinance a house with a loan, right?
That's right. Yeah. And that's not a huge deal, but we're getting down to everything you consider when you're refinancing loans.
Yeah, okay, cool. And this is also a hard time when it's kind of tricky to buy a house, so it makes sense to be careful.
Exactly. Yeah. Just be careful with that. The next one is pretty big, I would say. And that is to consider your cash flow. So when physicians decide I'm going to refinance and they kind of get over the fact that their loans aren't going to be forgiven, which is a hard pill to swallow, they love to refinance them to really aggressive terms. So maybe pay them off in a few years.
Speaker 2 (25:00.182)
And while I love that they want to do that, a lot of times it's just not a prudent decision. mean, there's a lot of other things to consider with your new cash flow that you have or with your income to just then just hammering these student loans as hard as you possibly can.
Let see if I understand. like one minute I'm on a federal direct loan. I'm in some kind of IBR, income-based repayment. So I've got relatively low payments. Government says, I'm gonna stretch this out over a decade. And I decided that I wanna refinance. I go into a three to five year loan product. And now my payments are double or triple or four times what they used to be, right? Because now it's a shorter time period and it's not based on my income.
So, you know, basically I'm maxing out paying off the student loan, but it may be to the detriment of other things like putting money in a health savings account or maybe getting a tax break on funding 529s or, you know, maybe it competes with mortgage payments or some other thing, right? Is that kind of what you're talking about with cashflow or just like, can I afford this?
Exactly right. there's different, you know, we've talked about flexibility a lot. It's nice to have flexibility with cash flow. Just because you refinance your loans to something beyond five years doesn't mean you're going to go spend all the money. Yeah. You know, I think this is something that is when financial, you know, the blogosphere and financial gurus talk about money, they assume that you make bad decisions with your money. So they try to lock you in to pay this off fast and,
get aggressive. It's not always the case. Physicians usually come up with a plan for many different areas of their life and follow the plan. And if the plan is to pay your loans off in seven or ten years, that's okay.
Speaker 1 (26:52.526)
Can I take a quick detour here on this? It's on this topic, but it's tangential. many times I feed, see physicians come in and they're like, okay, I'm ready to invest. I'm ready to get serious about retirement. I'm ready to get serious about college. And a lot of times what that means is that they have paid off all their student loans and they paid off their mortgage. They're completely debt free and now they're ready to invest. you know, you know this, if we look at the numbers, if we look at how the math works out, that is a mistake.
Just pure and simple, it's a mistake. Most of time they're extinguishing low rate debt and they're foregoing tax benefits and they're foregoing the tax benefits of even having mortgage interest, which is, you know, clearly that's making lemonade out of lemons. But I think that it's a little bit, you know, the best way to do this is to do all these things at one time.
and not, you know, focus here, focus there, like, you know, I'm gonna eat my peas first, then I'm gonna eat my corn, then I'll eat my steak, right? Because there's opportunity costs to be, you that you have in all these other things. You know, like you said, it's the other things that you could have. And I think that the overwhelm of personal finance is like the next dollar problem. What do I do with my next dollar? I put in my student loans, do put it in my house, do I save for college, do save for retirement, do buy a car, go on vacation? It's like all these things. And...
I think it's like, okay, I'm just going to sit down. I'm going to eat my piece. I'm going to hammer the student loan. I think that leaves a lot of money on the table. And I think that that reduces a lot of flexibility. I just want to intone that as we're talking about, you know, hammering versus not hammering student loans and other debts. you know, if, that's you, get a plan.
look at your other alternatives. Think about the other things that you can be doing with your money. I'm not saying go out and borrow a bunch of money and invest. That's not what I'm saying. But what I am saying is, you know, this is, this is really a marathon, not a sprint. You know, the financial security game is a, is a long thing. It takes decades to get it right. And you know, sprinting from one thing to the next is, it's not good. It's not a balanced approach. And most of time you wind up with less money at the, at the end of that race than you would if you.
Speaker 1 (29:05.068)
Kind of balance things out. So that's that's my that's my side note
Yeah. So what you just said, Ben, is very hard for many physicians to hear because it's different than what they've heard. And so for a variety of reasons, I want to point out that physicians' financial situation is very different than the average person. Not only do they make more money, but they got a really late start most of the time compared to the average person.
Right. if the average person should sprint to pay off their average amount of student loans, maybe that's fine. When you start 10 years later than the average person, you must take a balanced approach. I mean, you don't have to. We've seen people be successful the other way, I guess. But the best decision that we've seen time and time again is to take a balanced approach to all of this.
Yeah. I mean, it's not, you you, you think about other things where physicians are forced to do many things at once, like, you know, go through their training and have a baby and keep a marriage and buy a house, you know, and maybe take care of parents. are five really huge complex things that are all happening at the same time. And so I think to be able to focus on retirement and college and student loans and mortgage debt and emergency fund all at the same time is, it's a different world. Right. And so.
maybe it's a little less familiar, but it's another area where you can have balance even though it may seem complex in the outset.
Speaker 2 (30:39.212)
Right. Yeah. So you look at this cash flow that you have and you decide, you know, can I even, should I even afford this loan? Should I? You probably can if you at the detriment of other things, but should I really be refinancing this loan right now? Right. Or maybe I should wait one year till my cashflow opens up or just
It really comes down to making this big decision is it the right time? So is it the right time for my cashflow? How long should this term, this loan be? And can I make a decision now that is middle of the road or should I go all in? And at that point, once you've considered forgiveness, your rate, your credit and your cashflow, you just have to make a decision and live with it.
Then you dive in.
Yeah, you dive in. Exactly. So I have a happy story. I told that sad story about the psychiatrist. I have another psychiatrist.
I'm the rays of sunshine come beating down through the clouds. Here it comes.
Speaker 2 (31:50.164)
There we go. So I have another psychiatrist that recently went into private practice and she is very passionate about the private practice that she's doing. And so when she told me that she did not want to pursue public service loan forgiveness, I actually, was one of those times I believed her, but for several reasons, mostly the flexibility and payment she wanted, we decided not to refinance right away.
and just kind of see how things shook out with some other areas of her finances before we refinanced. And keeping the flexibility for, think it was maybe, it was actually a couple years in her case. That's what she needed. And so we waited. And in that time, the government changed her mind a couple of times here or there. We met up again and we found out that because of these changes that the government had made, she, I think it was,
Something like a hundred of the hundred and twenty payments that didn't qualify before it do qualify now and So she had I think it was three hundred and fifty thousand dollars in student loans and from my analysis of what I can tell She should get those completely forgiven in the next six months
YATSEY
Speaker 1 (33:08.404)
whoa whoa so harkening back to our our previous scenario that's definitely like three solid years of of free psychiatry for the government which which honestly they could use a shrink right
Yeah, well, and for her in particular, I wouldn't say that she thinks a whole lot less about the numbers and a whole lot more about peace of mind. These loans really were a weight on her and still are. I really believe they'll go away, but it's not all about the numbers and sometimes it's about now she can actually pursue this
this dream and I know private practice normally makes more money but not her dream isn't to make more money in this specific practice she's going to make less and now she can actually do that rather than feeling like she has to go back and work in academia just for student loan reasons.
So if I'm summarizing here, it sounds like it's about keeping your options open. It's about flexibility and really drilling down into the details rather than just simply looking at one number as you make these decisions and allowing for the fact that there may be more than one future than the one that you envision. Okay, well, it sounds like it's time for us to close up.
Got it.
Speaker 1 (34:35.31)
If you have student loan questions, you can write us at podcast at physicianfamily.com. can visit our podcast at physicianfamily.com slash podcast, or you can drop a question on the physician family answer line. That phone number is 503-308-8733. One more time. It's 503-308-8733. Thanks for listening.
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