PFFAP-PYP-22-0106-How Can Doctors Improve Financial Marriage
Ben: [00:00:00] Welcome to the physician, family financial advisors podcast, where physician moms and dads turned today's worries about taxes, investing and extra money into a comfortable feeling of financial security. I'm Ben
Nate: utley. And I'm Nate today's question is how can doctors improve their financial matters? Um, after hundreds of calls, uh, with physician families who bring their money problems to our desk, then it it's become obvious over time that many of those problems really are associated with, uh, each physician's marriage, not all the time, but, but many times.
And, um, and how money is handled in their marriage. So, you know, while we're experts in money and definitely not experts in marriage, we have had to become in touch with. How to handle things inside of a marriage through this work. And, uh, I just thought, and you thought when this topic came up or continues [00:01:00] to come up, you know, I thought we should, we should talk about
Ben: it.
Yeah. Well, you know, when, when you talk about the problems that we see, I mean, most people are trying to get someplace, you know, they're trying to move from point a to point B. And so they think about investments and planners. Uh, but what I found is that the, the people who make the best progress from moving from where they are to the goals that they want to achieve, they have to do something different than what they did to get here.
So if they've saved hard to get here, then maybe they needed to do something different moving forward. And if there's. Then, you know, that's easy. You just make up your mind to change who you are, but if you are a double, you know, if you're, if you're married, then most of the time that change is going to involve both of you changing as partners in the relationship.
So. You know, that's kind of where I think that money and marriage come togethers, not when you continue to do the same thing year after year, day after day. But when you realize that what you're doing is either not working or it's not going to get you the results that you want, and you realize that you have to change.
What's means both [00:02:00] of you have to change and change around money can be difficult unless you just have, you know, incredible connection around that particular topic.
Nate: Yeah. And another kind of angle of this that I've noticed because physicians, you know, especially in double doctor families, you know, you can have miscommunications about money and still have a decent out.
W with your money. Um, but something that I've noticed is that maybe while they're going to hit their money goal, they do it at the expense of something else. And a lot of times that's at the expense of something inside their marriage. So the financial person in the marriage gets their way, but the nonfinancial person, uh, is, is getting dragged, kicking and screaming, um, or, or the opposite, you know, the nonfinancial person who doesn't.
Maybe value that money security as much. And doesn't think about it all the time. Um, really gives a lot of anxiety to the financial person. Right. And, um, [00:03:00] that's no fun either. Even if you are getting to quote unquote your money.
Ben: Yeah. And I think that the sad thing about that is you, you do get to the finish line, but you get to a suboptimal finish line it's, uh, where one of you is just dragging the other one along and it could be the savers dragging the spender.
It could be that the spender is dragging the saver along, but you know, there's, there's a rope. Uh, there's, there's some bondage there. There's some tying and dragging from one place to the next and it doesn't have to be that way. Um, like any team. You get better results when all of your team members are pulling in the same direction.
So I think that that is kind of the, the cause of the reason why, you know, we see people that are interested in improving their, their financial marriage. So. You know, given that we're not marriage experts in, in any way, other than our own marriages. Um, I know that you have a way that you think about money and kind of new things in the new year.
And I wanted to, uh, I want our listeners to hear a little bit about the process that you, you and your wife go through. And, and folks, before you hear [00:04:00] this, uh, I want you to know that Nate's wife is a social worker or a counselor. And so as a result of. They have an opportunity for really good communications.
Uh, but, uh, I'm, I'm also married to a former social worker and, uh, I can tell you that we have good communications around money, but it has not always been that way. So, so Nate, tell us a story.
Nate: Yeah. Well, I would say that my story is similar to that in a nutshell, except I'm the type of person that if there's any conflict, I really.
I really can't get past it. So I have to resolve conflicts. So that's like, uh, maybe what takes people several years to. So solve, um, we did a crash course and really got into it for maybe one year in the first year of marriage. Um, uh, if, if, if you've heard me tell this story, uh, I've told this story a lot, cause it's, it says a lot, but, uh, I used to be so tight with money that, uh, one time or my, uh, my spouse, um, was in charge of [00:05:00] the grocery budget and I was in charge of some other parts of the budget and she, I made her so.
Just nervous about money, because I was nervous about money that, uh, she was counting the tortillas in the bag and one time I wanted to eat an extra one and she was like, oh no, you can't do that. Well, you know, I'll have to go back. You know, we don't have, that's not in the grocery budget. Yeah. And I, oh my, I felt terrible.
First of all, because I thought, if you think we don't have enough money to buy extra tortillas, I'm doing this wrong. Yeah. Um, yeah. But you know, that. That brings up, uh, a conflict, um, often if someone's super tight like that. And that's how I was in the beginning. Cause we were trying to get out of debt and I really wanted to get out of that.
Ben: Um, okay. I dunno if it was the same way for you as it was for me, but, um, way early on in our relationship, I've been married for about 27 years and I've been with my wife for about 30. Early early on in our relationship three decades ago, we, [00:06:00] we fought about money and, you know, you don't think of financial advisors thinking, fighting with their spouses about money, but I was a chemistry geek at that time.
I had no financial wherewithal with me at all. Um, and I can remember a time where we were literally throwing hands full of coins, each other, and this was on a cross country trip and a small Honda. And it was a dry. It was just like, it was like a really sad, low point that is, uh, fortunately never repeated himself.
But, um, I think I want people to know that, you know, if you're fighting with about money with your spouse, that, uh, we've been there too. Yeah, that's normal. Yeah.
Nate: It just touches everything in a money, touches everything in life and. You know, so to me, that is, that was an epiphany. When I realized money touches everything.
Um, you were asking about kinda my year-end thing and it doesn't actually really have much to do with money. Uh, I think about money a lot and so money, uh, kind of creeps its way [00:07:00] in there. And we tend to make a lot of progress during this, this year end review that me and my wife do sort of accidentally.
Um, so we got married on new year's Eve and that was a really fun wedding, but also what's cool about that is after kind of the madness of Christmas, we, um, get to. Like several days in a row, um, where we just go on a lot of dates. And honestly, it's a pretty romantic time between me and my wife. And I have noticed that in the midst of that, that romance, it, it really disarms us.
And it makes it really easy for us to connect and not, not necessarily. In any way, fighting about whatever we're talking about, but we that's mixed in with new year goals. And so a lot of times we'll sit down and we'll talk about goals and that have nothing to do with money, but because money touches everything, we'll say something like, I really want to [00:08:00] spend more time, more quality time with each other.
Let's go on more small trips than maybe one big trip. So we like to go to, to bend Oregon or something like that. That touches the budget. So naturally comes up. And what I noticed through that reflection with each other is that everything money related for me, um, all comes down to our values. And I oftentimes forget that our goals are surrounded around our values when I'm, you know, knee deep in it, Excel spreadsheet.
But during that time, I'll find that my wife just said quality time. You know, my wife just said this or that. I just said, I want you to feel safe. Those are the words that come out during this time of our year. And it kind of recalibrates me and makes me realize what money is really for
Ben: sounds like you're, you're not connecting around money.
You're connecting in to that. That [00:09:00] makes a space for you to be able to talk about personal finances.
Nate: Um, that is certainly true. And it makes a space for us to talk about everything. And, you know, that can slip away in the midst of 50, 60 hour work weeks, even though we both love our work. Um, it can just, it can get, can slip past you.
So, um, I know, I, you know, I, I picked up on this value thing much through you, Ben, you're really big on, on understanding your values and following them. Could you talk about that a little bit?
Ben: Yeah. So values. I'm trying to think about, about where my personal values come into the money conversation in my marriage.
I can't say that they really do. I can say, though, I agree with what you're saying about money, touching everything. And I was thinking about that, that time where we're kind of throwing money back and forth at each other, literally, and, and, uh, fights that I've had with my wife and disagreements about money.
And, uh, it occurs to me that the [00:10:00] feeling that I was, I was feeling at that time was. You know, I, I felt like it was my job to provide or, and, you know, she never said that my, my wife, you know, she's financially, uh, stands on her own two feet. Uh, but at times I felt like I had to be the man, you know, I had to, I had to bring it home.
And, uh, when the business is being formed, you know, that was a struggle for me. And I think that when we fought about money, it's just that we didn't have enough. There's just simply not enough to go around and do all this stuff that we, we needed to do much less wanted to do. And. Uh, as a result result, I just, I felt a bunch of shame around it.
And I think that shame made it really hard for me to hear what my wife was actually saying, and to have the open communications that, that lead to more progressive discussions about money. So, uh, I recognize that in my myself and I guess, um, as far as personal values go, uh, one of my values is. Uh, so, you know, when you think about freedom and finances, you think about, [00:11:00] uh, FIRB, financial independence retire early.
I don't ever want to retire early. I don't, I don't really want to retire at all, but financial independence, you know, being, being able to have the freedom to, uh, uh, do what I want to in my practice to be able to treat people the way that I want to, uh, to, to be able to, uh, not be financially strapped and do the right thing, you know, to, to show up because.
Uh, what I want is to have a positive impact on the world. I find that things that impinge on my ability to have that freedom, uh, you know, financial things caused me some, some grief and some concern. And in the past, that was something that I, I hid from my wife or I fought about. And nowadays, you know, we have a solid connection.
I can bring things to her and say, Man. I just don't feel good about this. Um, but you know, I'd like for you to kind of talk with me about it and let me, let me hear what you have to say, because she knows me better than I know myself sometimes. And to be able to bring things to her and say, you know, here's what I'm feeling.
[00:12:00] What do you, what do you see? And a lot of times it's a loop I've been through before. So, uh, I think that that's something that I, that I get from my marriage or around money. But again, it's not, it's not about money. It's not about spending the money. It's about. The feelings that go with the having or the not having or the use.
So the application of money.
Nate: Yeah. I, I feel what you're saying in a sense of, um, it sounds like you kind of felt, uh, alone with, with the money stuff and trying to provide, and I feel that all the time and that's because I'm supposed to be. The guy with the answers when it comes to money, you're the money and I'm the money guy.
And if I'm the money guy with people at work, how am I not the money guy at home? Well, I am, but sometimes I need a partner, uh, with that. And, um, something that I, this is kind of a, a thought I've been, you know, that's been in my head for a while and it's not always [00:13:00] true, but, um, I kind of am realizing lately that in a marriage.
It seems like you don't always have to be a team in the sense of that you're playing the same game all the time. So, um, but you're
Ben: taking different sides, like once off offense, once defense kinda
Nate: right. And, and with, uh, when my spouse, I was I in the beginning, I thought, why aren't you more interested in this?
Uh, Why, why do I have to do the budget by myself? Like when she would help me a little bit, but w I was a lot more interested. Um, and then later on, I realized it's probably not a healthy thing that both of us be all in to every single thing. Like when you're new in a marriage, you think you're going to watch the same movies at the same time, read the same books, go on, you know, everything's, you're joined at the hip.
And then after a while you realize it's okay for me to be more into this money thing than.
Ben: I kind of had a disaster around that. You know, I've, [00:14:00] I've kind of always been the financial head of household, but, uh, you know, I I've fostered my spreadsheets and my budgeting and my, my thinking about finances and stuff on my wife.
And, uh, she, she knows about money. She's literate for sure. Her friends ask her questions about it, but it's just not her first thing in our first thing is our kiddos. Um, and there was a time when we agree that she would run the. And she did a good job with it, but I'm a perfectionist. And so I was never happy with how it worked.
And then when we, we flip-flopped, you know, what it did is it gave her an appreciation for what I go through, trying to kind of put everything together. And it also gave me an appreciation for what it felt like to, to not have direct control, to kind of be in the copilot seat. And when we reverse roles, uh, we each had a deeper appreciation for what the other person was going through.
And, um, I guess, uh, We, we flip-flopped our rolls back. I had read a book called how to improve your marriage without talking [00:15:00] about it. Uh, the author's last name, oddly enough is love. It's probably one of the best books I've ever read about a marriage, but it talks about, uh, us each day. Doing our things and not necessarily discussing that thing with the other person, but being open to receiving that person as they are kind of accepting who they are and in what role they're in.
And so, uh, when we kind of got the right butts on the right seats on the bus, you know, our, our money bus moved a little bit better. And, um, I remember one time. We had agreed that, uh, I would get an allowance. She would get an allowance in our, our kids. Uh, we would spend a certain amount of money on our kids, so their kids were too young to get an allowance and we don't pay them one, but it was the money that we're going to spend on, uh, you know, sports and clothing and, uh, haircuts and all that good stuff.
And all of our money came out of this. Checking account. So I saw what she spent, she's all what I spent and I saw what she spent or didn't spend on the kids. [00:16:00] And what I saw was her spending a lot of money on the kids and very little money on herself, all the while kind of staying in budget, right? So it was 400 for her 400 for the kids and 400 for me, uh, she spent $800 and not a nickel over that, but it's like 750 of it went on the kids.
And I was totally frustrated by that. And we had a huge knockdown drag out about. We got to talking about it and we agreed that it doesn't matter how the money is spent as long as it's within her value set. And I was like, okay, let's, that's cool. And I said, you know, I would feel better if I just didn't even see it.
And so we went from the hours system of banking to the hours and hers system of banking. And so now she has an account where she spends that money in any way that she sees fit, whether it's on herself or whether it's on her kids. Uh, you know, as a result, we have a whole lot more marital peace in our household.
As a result of that, a dollar amount spent never changed, but the communications around it and the [00:17:00] control structure changed. And that was a, that was a huge, uh, point in my life where things just got better. I was able to finally kind of see her perspective and, uh, you know, understand how she thought about things and, and to really accept that.
Yeah. Was things got immediately better after we made that change.
Nate: And with her thing being, you know, the connection with, with the kids and everything, you know, a lot of times it's, it's hard to accept that people have a different number one, then you not saying your kids are number one for you, but it's just that like, my, my spouse likes to buy things for the house.
And I like those things too. And it doesn't feel. It's fair that she spends her money on things that for our, for both of us. And she has told me time and time again, that's what I like to spend my money on. Yeah. And I, and I used to it's like, why am I imposing what she should myself on what she should spend her money on?
Because we also have the, we call it fun money, but you know, money [00:18:00] for ourselves. And two things for me, it enforced this idea that reflection on who she is. Not what she's doing, but who she is, um, really allows me to accept the things that she does. Yeah. And as long as she's making decisions that are like in congruence with who she is, I'm happy about that.
'cause because
Ben: your, your, your first inclination, you know, as you, as you bump into these issues for the first time, which I imagined some of our listeners are, uh, you want to change that person. It's like, why don't, why don't you see Nate, that, that we need this. Like, how could you be so stupid? Our old couch is dead and we need the new couch, the dog and the kids too, the last one up.
And there's no place for my family to sit when they come. You know, it's like, and you know, she might want to change your perspective on furniture and you might want to change her perspective on saving or getting out of debt as fast as you can. There's that temptation and that, that desire to change someone.
And you see that all the time. The key really seems to be in [00:19:00] an acceptance. And I read somewhere one time recently that said, um, the, the secret to remaining married and to having marital accord is to be able to see the world through your partner's eyes. Without losing your own perspective, to be able to see the world that they see their way without losing yourself and your own perspective, to be able to hope both of those, to look outside yourself and, and imagine how it would feel and how it would.
For, for them from, from their way of life. And you can do that without convincing them to spend or not spend or whatever. And I found that in times when I've had the mindfulness to be able to do that, that it's altered the way that I approach situations, problems, opportunities, uh, with my wife and we've come together on things.
And not only that. I think that there's this perception that women are more emotional and men are more rational or logical in our society and culture [00:20:00] values, rational and logic, and they discount emotion. But what I've found is that when we worked with. And we both bring the emotion and the logic together that we make far better decisions than one of us would have made just using logic or the other one would have made just using emotion, particularly around the use of resources in our family for, for our.
Because it may seem obvious what the right thing is to do, but for one of us, that doesn't feel right. And when we make a decision that lines up the feelings with the, with the kind of the rational or the, uh, the logical side of things, that it's a way better decision than either one of us could have made on our own.
Nate: Yeah. Um, I think that, that, that literally walks right into a question I wanted to ask you, but. Where I think we, maybe we should ask our listeners just not to respond or anything, but just to think about this, this is the question I was posing to myself, [00:21:00] uh, early on in my marriage. Uh, when, when, when Brittany, my spouse, Brittany, when she was, um, when she would approach things from maybe a emotional angle or a family angle that I wasn't seeing, um, I had to ask myself is her approach actually a problem.
Or is my understanding of her approach and our communication about her approach. Really the. Right. And then she asks the same thing of me, you know, is Nate's approach of kind of maybe, um, thinking about money too much, uh, or the amount I think about money. Is that actually a problem or is it the feelings that Nate, that it brings into Nate and the, our communication may be being too much about money really?
Ben: Is the reality or is it your reaction is kind of what I'm
Nate: hearing. Right. Yeah. And if you, if you find that it's the reality, then you know, you can get to work. But if it's the reaction, then you're [00:22:00] working on something different you're working on yourself and your
Ben: marriage. Well, as I hear you talk about these things, I think there's, there's two things going on that, uh, that if I were a listener, a physician, mom or dad, I'd be like, oh, that sounds great, Nate.
I mean, you're, you're married to a person who has a background in psychology and, and you're only working 50 or 60 hours a week, not 60 or 70 hours a week. So you're got the luxury of time and you have a trained counselor in your corner. Like how the hell do I do this in my own house? Right. So, uh, you know, with kids going all kinds of different directions, um, my wife and I have found that the way to do that is to synchronize, uh, once a week for about an hour and a half.
And for us, it happens to be Saturday mornings. And the tone of that conversation is not usually, it's not usually about money, that sometimes that's a, that's a topic, but, uh, we ask an answer like, how are you doing? Like, how was your. Um, what was, what was the big things? What are you worried? [00:23:00] Moving forward.
Um, you know, what do you feel good about what did you learn? Those kinds of things? I asked her those questions. Uh, we discuss our experience with the kids, you know, how, how it went for me that week with our children and how it went for her with each specific child's who reviewed their circumstances. And we, we almost have a format that we fell into it naturally.
And sometimes there's something that money will touch particular when we get to the end of the month. And I'd be like, well, we need to. We didn't get the, to kind of tighten it up on a tears and take out, which is our night to sit down together as a family and watch the bachelor. Um, you know, so, uh, you know, so we'll have discussions around that, but in the beginning of that conversation, we check in about how.
And one, I find that once we have, we've kind of discussed that thoroughly and we have a meeting of the minds, then we can move on and discuss things that are kind of the nuts and bolts of how to get things done and kind of looking forward. But without that touching base and the, the, how are you question?
The whole conversation falls apart and it turns into what I call Saturday [00:24:00] morning.
Nate: Wow. Yeah, that's actually terrific. Um, I th so I am actually learning this about you for the first time right now, and I'm going to implement that because I have the same time. I actually have a. 30 or 40 minutes where we check in about the budget, which is a huge improvement, um, 30 minutes.
And we also do that about the calendar because my big deficiency is the calendar, but so I've committed to sitting down and talking about the calendar. And so connecting before that, you know, it just disarms you. It's just me having a real connection, which is really what you're after here. If the marriage, um, can make those conversations go a lot better.
Ben: Yeah. I think it's the. The part where, uh, I'm going to try to I'll speak from my perspective. Um, I'm, I'm a kind of guy who shares throughout the course of the week. So I, you know, by the time Saturday morning gets there, I'm like, I could just tell you what I told you yesterday, but usually I don't, but with her, when [00:25:00] she speaks, um, I continue to listen and question and be active until, until I believe she has been.
Which is to say understood as a person or, or fully thought through, uh, you know, where she's had an opportunity to reprocess or discuss those things with me to the point that she feels more or less done with them. And, uh, I wish I knew what, how I know what that looks like, but, uh, it just, it feels like a turn in emotional stance.
And to me it feels like a kind of. To really be able to see her and have her feel like she's seen lays the groundwork for all the communication that comes after that. And it's, it's very intentional. Uh, I ask questions that, that caused that to become the case and she knows it's happening, but she also knows that I'm putting an effort into.
Kind of getting to where she's at so we can, uh, we can be on the same page and, and it's rough, you know, we go different directions for all week long, might see her [00:26:00] for an hour a day. Uh, but we reconnect everything on Saturday morning. When I think about you, I think you guys seem to have from that outside of a pretty harmonious, uh, perspective, maybe that's not real, but, uh, can you tell me about a memorable, uh, disagreement or fight that you guys had about money and how it was.
Nate: Oh, you know, I'll try to make it memorable, but it's, it's memorable to me because it re it reminds me of where I need to grow, but really I get very focused on goals. And so if I find a goal that I must have, or I must accomplish, and I lay it out there for. For my wife. She takes it very seriously. Like you said this, you said you want me to worry about this now I'm worrying about this.
Oh, okay. So then when that goal is not yet accomplished, but Nate thinks up another. [00:27:00] That competes with that goal. And then Nate goes upstairs and says, Hey, I want to do this too. And sh and, and my wife says, well, what about this other thing that you just asked me to worry about? And, um, this happened with that a couple of times.
So I was gung ho on getting out of debt. We want to get all our student loans paid off, everything paid off, and it took us five years of really, really hard work. Yeah. Um, second jobs type of work, even when we had our, we were in the midst of work. Yeah. Um, and I said, well, yeah, well, don't worry about that.
I want to do this. And that had created, uh, uh, a fight a couple times where I, where Sheetz thought, she's thinking back to the last year and a half of worrying about that and how crazy it made me yet. Now I'm saying, don't worry about it. You know, I was just, that was just a game.
Ben: So kind of, uh, a flip-flop
Nate: basically.
Yeah. Flip-flop [00:28:00] I learned quickly not to do that, not to flip-flop, but also to only bring up the, the goals that I was committed to completing and not to just throw things against the wall until they stick well. Okay.
Ben: So do you, do you feel like she might be a little bit culpable in that too in that, um, you know, it sounds to me like these, this goal was your idea and you brought it and she accepted the idea.
Rather than maybe you guys talking about three or four different goals and collectively deciding which one should be the priority and, and deciding on that together with each of you kind of intoning your own, why and your own understanding of what what's material about that and, and the background behind what you're, you're actually moving forward to that.
I mean, I know that it takes two to tango, right? So. Just lay on you.
Nate: Yeah. I think that there's probably some of that and I think I'm, I'm guilty of that too. And things that this is kind of a strange word to use, but my spouse [00:29:00] recognizes that I'm the money person. And you know, I'm saying this as if, you know, I don't have the it's like 90% of the time I have the.
Ben: That's where she will let you
Nate: lead is what you're saying. Exactly. And so the word, um, I would probably use is like, almost like submit. Um, and when she has, uh, ideas about how, you know, just to be honest, I mean, when she has a, she's a psychologist, I mean, she knows how we should be speaking to our children.
And so when she has an idea about that, that's different than I was raised or different than how I would do it. Honestly. I'm most of the time I submit to her. And that has gotten us in trouble a couple of times. And another time that's allowed us to just say, Hey, they know best I'm going to do that. And it works.
Yeah. Um, but you're right. In some moments it's like, well, yeah, I'm asking you to sidestep this big goal I laid out for you. Cause I'm trying to guess what you want. And I'm kind of looking at this and watching you struggle over this debt goal and you hate. So I'm kind of making this new goal, so that maybe you'll be a little [00:30:00] bit happier,
Ben: but you know, you just said something interesting about guessing what the other person wants.
And it makes me think of a saying that I've heard when, when people are assuming, uh, the reason people assume is because they don't feel comfortable asking to get the real answers. So they make an assumption. There's something between them and drilling down to find the actual answers. So they make that.
And when you make that assumption, you have to also step back and ask yourself, what am I, what do I fear here? You know, why, why am I not opening up and asking for what I really need and making the circle? So your story about like being the money guy, uh, in her kind of, uh, to handing, handing over the keys to you with that regard makes me think about something that my, my wife and I have disagreed about.
We finally came to a really unusual resolution, but it works perfectly for us. So, um, she loves to travel and I. I'm not a huge traveler. I mean, I'll go places, but it's [00:31:00] not my main thing. And I see it as kind of expensive. And I'm guessing that some of our listeners may have fought about vacation, whether to take one where to go, how long to go, you know, who's going to watch the kids, that whole thing, that, that can be a tussle because you're looking at resources and, and, you know, time, money, uh, personal choices, those kinds of things.
And I have seen, uh, families that we serve actually fight over this topic. So I'm sure it's. Um, but, uh, I tend to be perfectionistic. I have really high standards, um, and I can crush the joy out of any future fund thing by analyzing it to death. Right. So, uh, vacation is one of those things and a recent vacation we had did meet my standards and I was a little bit disappointed.
But it was, I was disappointed with the vacation itself. Like the destination of what I saw, the thing that I really found good was the interaction, you know, singing in the car with the kids and having conversations about what we, what we saw and about [00:32:00] how it impacted our lives. Some social history. I mean, a lot of deep conversations I have with my kids.
And I enjoy just being with my wife in a relaxed environment. That was the positive part for me. Uh, the part I didn't like was having to know what everything cost. And I guess I didn't really mind spending the money. I just didn't like the way it felt to spend it. So my wife and I sat down and we talked about this and we came up with a unique solution.
So the solution is this. Um, we agreed on how much money we're going to spend on vacations on an annual basis. And, uh, we divide that into 12. And so every month I send one 12th of our, our annual vacation budget into her secret account that I never look in. And she uses that money to. Bye vacations in whatever quantity we'll buy as often as it'll buy.
So that could be 12 little vacations. That could be one huge vacation every couple of years, you know, anywhere in between that's travel. But the hitch is that she makes these arrangements, but does not tell me where we're going. [00:33:00] Um, so for example, I know that I'm going to be on vacation for spring break, but I literally have no idea where I'm going.
I don't know if it's going to be us, if it's going to be international. And most people would think that that's crazy, but I'm a guy who enjoys surprises, especially on the upside. And it, uh, it doesn't give me an opportunity to form high expectations that may not be met while I'm there. So, but I know that.
Loves my kids and she's always got my back. And so I know that she's going to take care of me when she puts together the travel arrangements. Uh, and I trust her implicitly with all that. Not only that she loves looking on TripAdvisor and Airbnb and finding a sweet place to stay. She's like the fun queen.
She's the person people invite to parties to make the parties happen. And so we've worked out this arrangement that, uh, she has to tell me in advance. They used to block out, but they can't tell me any details, neither her nor the kids about where we're going to go. And then, uh, about three days before he goes, she needs to tell me if it's us or international, so I can make some arrangements in, in the care for the business.[00:34:00]
And I don't actually find out where we're going until we get on the airplane. Oh,
Nate: wow. Yeah. So there's no time to, to, I guess you could say nitpick or really, uh, you know, deep dive into things that really don't mean.
Ben: Yeah, right. It doesn't matter. The only thing that matters to me is that my family is safe, that she feels good about it, uh, that my kids are with us.
And that we're, we're having a positive experience as a family. That's all I care about. And so, you know, if that's, uh, you know, some interstate travel or if that's international travel really doesn't matter to me. And then that's what I found is like, I can have a good time with my family no matter where I go and no matter what we do, so what we do and where we go to.
Does not matter, but it matters to her greatly because she's making memories and she's building experiences for our kids. So, um, you know, that's kind of a, uh, kinda, it's probably a Jew, a gigantic unusual way to approach a money problem, but it shows what's possible when you each think about what's valuable to you.
What's not [00:35:00] important. Uh, and you put your heads together to collectively discuss a financial issue. And I, and I got to say the last time we did this, I mean, I saw none of the bills. I have no idea what it costs. She took me out to this really fancy dinner. One time, I didn't even know how much the tip was.
And it was just like, I got to order what I wanted and totally enjoy it. And the kids had big smiles on their faces and it just, it was. It was just really a fantastic time. So I just want to hold out a vision of hope that when you come to your solution, it will probably look different than what your colleagues are talking about, but it will be your solution to the unique aspects of your marriage as they apply to.
Yeah.
Nate: And, and, and, uh, you'll know it's right, because it will feel right if you know your spouse and you're connected with them. And so just like you said, I wish I could tell you what it looks like when my spouse has been seen. Well, that looks different for everybody. And that takes work. So work, work on that rather than work on the numbers and you're setting yourself up for
Ben: success.
Yeah. Maybe, uh, maybe to find that, [00:36:00] that scene point, uh, another book I check out, as you've mentioned is the five love language. Um, that's a really well-written book. There's there's coaching programs and all kinds of stuff around it. Um, but that's, that's a good way to, uh, help your partner or your spouse feel seen in the, in the process.
Certainly. Yeah. So I think that about wraps it up for me. How do you, how do you
Nate: feel Nate? Yeah, that that's, I mean, this is like a lifetime of, of learning about your relationship and money's just a part of it. So recognizing that this is all. W I could recommend.
Ben: Yeah. So, so Nate, I have to ask you, do you feel seen and heard?
Nate: I actually do. I saw, we talked about some things I wasn't expecting and, um, I might have to, uh, take my, that Saturday morning to let my spouse hear this podcast.
Ben: Nice. And it may, maybe I hope my wife doesn't hear it.
We'll see. Nice. Okay. [00:37:00] Well, so I'm going to wrap us up. So you listener out there, you physician, mom, you doctor, dad. We want to hear from you. We want you to be seen and heard, please, please, please contact her. She'll be making my day. I'm not going to grab, I'm not going to buy it, but I'm a say. That you can visit us on the [email protected].
You can send us your questions and we'll actually lovingly craft a response just for you by sending them to podcast at physician, family.com. Or if you're feeling brave, you can pick up the phone and record a voicemail with your question. That's 5 0 3 3 0 8 8 7 3 3. That's a physician family answer line 5 0 3, 3 0 8 8 7 3 3.
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