PFFAP-PYP-21-0325-Hunter Clarke-Fields-v2
[00:00:00] Nate: Welcome
Ben: to the physician, family financial advisors podcast, where we turn today's worries about taxes, investing and extra money into a comfortable feeling of financial security that can last a lifetime. I'm Ben
Nate: and I'm Nate Renegade. Today's question is how can I make my child starts saving money to help us answer this question?
We have a guest hunter Clark fields hunters, the creator of the mindful parenting course. Uh, host of the mindful mama podcast and the author of raising good humans and mindful guide to breaking the cycle of reactive parenting and raising kind confident kids. She helps parents bring more calm and peace into their daily lives.
Hunter has over 20 years of experience in meditation practices and has taught mindfulness to thousands worldwide. Hi hunter.
Hunter: Hi Nate. Thanks for help.
Nate: Of course, that was quite the introduction. You [00:01:00] got a lot going on. I was speaking with cohost Ben, and we looked over your book, Ben, read your entire book.
And we talked a lot about mindfulness before the podcast, but I don't know if a lot of our listeners are familiar with mindfulness. It might be a new topic for them. Can you just tell us about it and how it helps.
Hunter: Sure. Um, yeah, I mean, they may have like heard it in the news because it's been very much a buzzword, but mindfulness is, I kind of see it as, for P for parents.
It's kind of like this, a brain that we desperately need, uh, because what. Well, first, I'm just going to, I'll tell you what it does, and then I'll tell you kind of what it is, but what what's cool for us as parents is that it not only among the many benefits that have been proven by research, does it like lower anxiety, lower depression, increased feelings of wellbeing, help us sleep better, all kinds of things like that.
But importantly, for us [00:02:00] parents, It helps us to really increase our impulse control or lower our reactivity, which is like, if we can agree right. That we are at our worst. Sure. Reactive, I think. But what mindfulness is is basically it's a, um, it's the intention to put your attention into the present moment and that can be paying attention to the breath.
Sounds feelings in your body. Uh, your child, uh, with an attitude of kindness and curiosity, how this is different from the way we, we are, most of the time is that most of the time we are on autopilot, most of the time we're kind of like going a million miles an hour doing the next thing. And then, then the next thing, you know, You talked to me, your brain might be thinking about your response or going into a story that something I said [00:03:00] triggered, right?
And so we're often not really present the, just because that's how the brain evolved was to like predict, predict our future. Right. And keep us safe. And so we're often in this autopilot mode and we're often in this autopilot mode with our kids. And when we can start to. W the beauty of mindfulness, not only, not only does it help us become less reactive, which is really like, you know, the big thing, it helps us study the heart, the mind, the nervous system, but the beauty of coming into the present moment, really being in the present moment with our kids, not just like, get this thing done and this thing done and this thing done.
And wait until we get to our vacation to finally like really be present. Is that. That's the only time that life is available. That's the only time of true connection with our kids is available. My teacher, the Zen master tech, not Han. He has [00:04:00] said, um, when you love someone, the best thing you can offer is your presence.
How can you love if you are not there? And to me that speaks volumes because I want to really be there. We have this one wild precious life that any of us could go tomorrow. So I wanna, I want to really be there. I don't want to be on autopilot, just ticking things off my list and the added bonuses that it, it really helps me take my temper.
Yeah.
Nate: Right. Yeah, that that, uh, makes me think. So, uh, real quick, you're obviously a mother, but, um, how old are your kids and how many do you have?
Hunter: I have two daughters ages, 14.
Nate: Okay. Great. I'm glad that they're a little bit older. You've had you you're far surpassed me. I have two boys and they're two and eight months.
So I, I need mindfulness more than ever. [00:05:00] Um, but uh, a lot of our listeners I'm sure have, you know, uh, you know, children that are teenagers and, and it seems like it could be a little bit too late at this point, but I want to get to that in a moment. What, um, you, you pointed something out there. I wouldn't say it makes me feel guilty, but it's certainly, um, made me think of this week when I wasn't being so mindful a few times.
And there's moments at my house where I will want my child to do something and wonder why they're not doing it. And later realize the only time I'm ever fully engaged or the only time in that moment that I was fully engaged with them is when maybe I'm barking an order. Right. And sometimes I reflect back on that and think why on earth would, you know, over the long run, why would they keep listening?
If the only time I'm ever fully engaged with them as if it's something that I want them to. Right. And, um, [00:06:00] and then
Hunter: were likes getting orders barked. Not that not to guilt you, cause you're not alone. It's just like the typical two-year-olds world. It's put on your shoes and come over here and go over there and Freshie,
Nate: uh, you know, and, and that's something that has been on my mind as well as it seems like to get them to, uh, to get a child, especially a two year old to just, uh, get to bed.
Right. It's 75 different orders. You have to give them. And so, um, I'm kind of interested in knowing maybe some strategies on how you can be mindful, but also, um, on time to work in.
Hunter: Right. Yeah. Those are great question. And yeah, nobody. Yeah. Nobody likes orders barked at them, but a kid a two year old does that, that is a very much a typical two year old's life.
Um, unfortunately it's [00:07:00] interesting because if I said to you, Nate, turn up your wallet. Neat. Sit down, Nate, stand up. You probably wouldn't like it. You wouldn't like me very much. Um, and, and two-year-olds are no different, except we are just all in this cultural mill, you where this is how we talk to kids.
You know, we just kind of, we, we, we are, that is kind of the default in our culture is that we, we bark orders, right? But unfortunately, no, nobody likes having corners barked at them. Um, and it gets really tiresome after a while. No matter what age you are. So it can actually be what happens when a child has orders barked at them all day long or threats, you know, do this, or you'll, won't be able to do that.
Sort of thing. Then they start from a very young age as you're [00:08:00] pointing out two years old to develop resistance to what you're saying, because nobody likes having orders barked at them and nobody likes being threatened. So they start to resist what you're saying, because you know, the choices are either resist or submit.
Um, they don't th there's no other kind of choice. I would thinking of bringing some mindfulness in this, into this right. Which is some awareness of the present moment with kindness and curiosity. Right? So if we can bring kindness and curiosity into that moment at bedtime, where you're giving 75 orders to your child, um, we want to be aware of a couple of different things.
And one of them is that. You're tired and you don't have a lot of resources at the end of the day. And, uh, so we want to be aware of that, but we also want to be in your trying to get your needs met. Right. You're trying to get your needs met for your child to [00:09:00] go to bed. So you can also go to bed or have some time alone with your, your spouse, perhaps, right?
And, but what we want to also understand, if we start to bring more awareness to the situation and less like, just like, like autopilot, we can understand that every year single thing our child is doing is they're just trying to meet some need of theirs right there. Every, every behavior is an attempt to meet their needs, so they may have needs.
Autonomy or, um, attention or affection, you know, all kinds of different needs that a child has. So if we can step back in that moment and S first of all, try to model, um, respectful requests. That, you know, how would you, how would you want your child making a request of you? Maybe that's the way you can make that request of your child, or how would you speak if it was like [00:10:00] your mother that was getting ready?
She had to brush her teeth out. Would you ask mom to brush her teeth, um, or respected auntie you? We can start to use more. Respectful kinder language with kids. And that, that can go a long way. And also because they're modeling, you know, they're learning from how you do things. So they're, they're going to start to, you're going to start to hear your own voice coming out of your child.
So it's nice to model kind, respectful language, but then also to recognize that when your child has resistance to a request, Start to get curious as to why, like what's going on here, what need is not being met for my child? And, you know, maybe it's a need for some choice. Maybe it's a need for some playfulness.
Maybe it's a need for some connection. Um, and so starting to get, bring that attitude of kindness and curiosity into that moment. But then I want to kind of circle [00:11:00] back before we finish into like your needs in that moment. You may have been exhausted after a long day. And so it's helpful if you have a, you know, you could maybe say, oh, I'm really like, I'm pretty spent at this point in the day.
So you could maybe tag out with your parenting partner. Five minutes say, Hey babe, can you handle this, handle this part for five minutes and I'll come back in and they made maybe just for five minutes, you just go sit in a child's pose in yoga, or you just. Close your eyes and put a hand in your belly and a hand on your heart and just breathe and just give yourself some time to rest.
A really wonderful rejuvenating move is from yoga is called legs up the wall. You can sit with your legs up the wall, and it really is very reviving, but you could just take a few minutes to say, oh, I'm really spent at the end of the day. If, if I can tag out. [00:12:00] Then I can come back and I can be a little more refreshed and a little more alert and a little more curious and a little kinder.
Nate: Mm. Yeah. That, um, first of all, sounds lovely. Um, and I, you know, sometimes. I w I think me and my spouse do that pretty well. Uh, I don't, I think the part where we may fail is, um, in using that five minutes, very with intention, you know, doing, uh, actually going to relax rather than going to get something done.
Um, and it just feels like it's a non-stop, but kind of the, the where my mind goes to when, when you said, ask yourself the question, really what meat. Does my child have right now, um, brings me to the journaling. I know in your book, you encourage your readers to get in the habit of journaling. And I actually have recently, um, started journaling myself maybe in the last year.
And for me, journaling [00:13:00] has given me a lot of self-awareness, but, um, and it really given me some intentionality in my life, but it is oftentimes after the fact. And so it's sort of like, um, You know, I tell my two year old a lot, if, if he makes a mistake or something, you know, we talk about it and then we say, but we'll try again tomorrow.
And, um, I'd have to tell myself sometimes that when I'm doing my own journaling, I guess I'll try again tomorrow. Um, so w tell me how journaling fits into all this and how it can be helpful. Maybe when do you do it? Does it revive you in the moment or does it give you things to think about?
Hunter: I kind of use it when I'm wrestling with something, right?
Like when they're actively learning something. And so that'll be you for like, Four years for sure.
But, um, yeah, it it's, it helps to clarify your [00:14:00] thoughts. Right. And to bring more awareness to, what are you thinking? What are you feeling around these things? So I personally, when I journal I'm a nighttime journal. When I find that really helpful, or sometimes like, if I have a quiet moment on a weekend, I'm a journaler.
Um, so yeah, it helps us to kind of bring that clarity. So if you went to your journal and you said, well, how am I currently like asking my son to do all these things at night? And you wrote down the things he said, and then you said like, huh, how would I ask my. Mom respected onto you to do these things.
And you could try the alternative version, but I love how you're pointing out this idea of like, of starting again, because that's, that's really a super power to just begin a new every day to forgive ourselves to recognize that we're not going to be perfect and begin a new every day. [00:15:00] And yeah, maybe you're beginning a new with your, some more awareness from your journal.
Nate: It always amazes me, um, with my kids. How, how rough a night can be. Maybe it's not even me, maybe my, my toddlers, just having a toddler moment trying to go to bed. And maybe I did a great job, but really took it out of me in, in the morning. It's just all forgotten by the toddler. We just cried for two hours and it was the end of the world.
And in the morning, So I don't, you wish you could do that? I wish I could, but what's funny is their energy does rub off on me and kind of, it all is well for, until, you know, at the end of the day again. But, um, yeah, so I think journaling, uh, It has been helpful for, uh, you know, for doing that. Um, it as an adult that waiting through your mistakes and also your triumphs really.
I mean, there's times where I [00:16:00] just feel like it went great brushing my two-year-olds teeth. And I think, man, why can't it be like that every night? And it's really difficult to think back and say, well, because I gave him a lot of attention that day and, um, I gave him choices and let him. Embrace his own, his own choices.
And, um, so when we got to brushing the teeth, that wasn't the pro really the brushing the teeth, isn't the problem, I guess. Um, and even, even journaling has allowed me to realize that, uh, rather than in the moment thinking, what am I doing while we're brushing his teeth that, um, is working right now? It's the journaling for the whole day.
That makes me realize why it was so easy to brush his teeth. Does that mean.
Hunter: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We have a in mindful parenting course, we have a track, your triggers spreadsheet where, you know, if you were getting, you know, I love the idea of like you're tracking your wins and we do, we celebrate the wins quite a lot, but like, it [00:17:00] also really helps to say like, Oh, you know, so in the, in the work bucket, it's like, who were you hungry?
Who were you tired? When did this happen? What time of day, what was happening? And, and that, that all can be really helpful to bring this up. This kind of like more, like, be a little more like a scientist about it and just be like, well, what were the needs that weren't met here or were needed to be met here?
And how can we, how can we understand this situation more clear? Yeah,
Nate: that's interesting that you said scientists. Cause that's where my mind went. I thought probably a, not, not a lot of mindful yogis out there who think of, uh, you know, being a scientist, but there is an element of that there, you know, it's not all just feelings.
It's, Hey, let's be methodical and realize what's working and what's not. Um, I have had to find the balance there because I would say I'm more on the. Spreadsheets side. Um, but, uh, my wife is the opposite as a therapist. And so we put our heads together and that's actually [00:18:00] been our experience. We don't have the spreadsheet, but I think we should start one I'm all in favor of more spreadsheets.
So I, I, and to bring this, uh, you know, the topic today is about money is a podcast about raising children with money. And I thought it would be, uh, Interesting or at least I was interested in doing, um, kind of one of those exercises about engaging all of your senses. Um, because I, I, I, in your book, you talk about engaging all five senses with a Razan.
Yes. Right? So the look of the reason, the feel of the wrinkly raised in the taste of the reason, the smell, maybe hearing yourself, chew it, um, all that. And I thought, how could you do that? With a young child with money. And I think it's kind of obvious how you could, I mean, you could do that really with anything, but kind of where I get a little bit off [00:19:00] track in my head is the, feel, the look and everything that has, uh, you know, that a child can understand about a dollar bill or a nickel really has nothing to do with what money actually is.
Right? It's this. Physical tangible thing versus the idea of money where we all agree that this, this piece of paper has value is very, um, you know, it's not tangible in any way. Um, yeah. So how, how would you, how do you use mindfulness just to kind of, and do this kind of engaging the census to explain an idea to a child that maybe they don't understand yet?
Like they know how it feels. They don't really know what it is or why it's important. Hmm.
Hunter: Well, I dunno, I guess I'm sort of, I'm struggling to answer that question because a child's world is very concrete for a long time. [00:20:00] And so to take, uh, an abstract symbol is to teach an abstract symbol that they don't understand.
It's hard for them to understand, but I think that we could do it by making it relevant to them. You know, for instance, You're at the hardware store and you see the of lollipops or whatever it is. And that's the forbidden fruit for two year old. I know, but you know, maybe one time you say, okay, like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, we're gonna buy that lollipop and you're gonna, you're gonna pay for it.
And so. You count it out. You say, how much is it? And you, you know, you put it in his hands and you hold him up as he hands it over. And, and so he has the experience of the exchange of something that he desires and that there's a value for it. So I would think that a way to do it would be to make it concrete.
My daughters. [00:21:00] Going to Montessori schools and they're still in Montessori schools and the way they teach math and numbers is so amazing. And it makes me wish I hadn't learned it that way, where they take it completely, that it doesn't become abstract until they're much older than most kids. So they don't use, they use manipulation.
For every mathematical thing, they do well into like fourth grade, fifth grade. Sometimes they still use, they use them in sixth grade and they're using manipulatives that make it concrete. What is a square root? What is, what is a, uh, as a bar of 10 beads, that's a 10 bar, a bar, five beads. That's a five bar.
That's half of that. Right. And making it all very concrete. I think that's really one of the. Best ways for kids to learn. Like we know that kids. [00:22:00] Don't do well, learning things from screens, right? Kids five and under, you know, it's not great for them to have a lot of screen time. We know that because they need to engage their five senses.
They need to engage with the three-dimensional world. They need to engage with concrete. Actual things that are in their present moment, right. In the here and right in the now, because they don't have the, you know, and they don't, their, their brains aren't fully developed the abstract, logical, rational, rational stuff is not, they're not ready for that yet.
So I think making that, just understanding like back to the needs of our child, Well, you know, how can we, how can we make this fun? How can we make this interesting and how can we make it concrete? Right. I think that's really, you
Nate: know, I could think of examples of an UN on a human level, not even, uh, you know, just for children.
Um, you know, there's extensive studies out that show. Um, it's much easier to spend money on a credit card than it is to spend cash. [00:23:00] And it's like this physical world that we live in, we shut all, engage in and understand why it's important. Um, and that, that only comes by, you know, because when I was a kid, I actually had to spend cash and understanding the value of something in exchange for something else, rather than me giving you an allowance and you spending your own money, um, as a, as a child and, um, me just buying it for you, it's the same result, but, um, the experience.
Was not there. And that experience really is more concrete than I think parents realize sometimes it really is the, uh, it's not just handing the money that that is one experience in and of itself. But the lesson from the, the doing something to get the money, to spend the money, to get what you want, um, is really the first step I think, um, Yeah.
So there's, there's a lot of physical, concrete lessons. It's like five lessons in one. [00:24:00] So, um, the, the question for today is I think can kind of spin off of that is, um, you know, how do we make our children start saving money rather? I mean, we just talked about how to spend it and it gets something eat want, but how do we make them start?
Saving it. And, um, I'm hoping the listeners know that our house, but my other co has been, we, we don't really make our kids do anything, but I think that's kind of our, um, tendency. I just talked about making my child brush teeth. Um, so do you have any thoughts on that, about how to, um, encourage or what do you do to get your child to do something you, you know, Is a good thing for them.
Long-term but, um, isn't so fun. It's not very exciting to save.
Hunter: Yeah. Um, I think that we want to think about when we're thinking about teaching our kids, [00:25:00] anything, you know, we're, we're teaching values and remodeling values all the time in our, in our house, by the way we live. Right. So money can be confusing there.
Cause I don't know, that's all very behind the scenes. It's on a computer screen. You're not seeing all these things like you might. See, you know, mom or dad apologizing to one another, or apologizing to a child, if they've made a mistake and repairing a relationship, but you may not see. So you may learn that that may be something that's kind of in the air, but you may not see there are habits and practices around money.
So. I think that just as we, you know, we want to set up boundaries and structures for our kids, that's really important. There's, you know, they're, they're kind of like two extremes of parenting. There's a lot of us grew up with authoritarian parenting that uses, uh, like threats and punishments to. Where the parent pushes down all the [00:26:00] solutions onto the child and, and makes them do what they want.
And then there's like permissive parenting, right? Which is the opposite where the kid solves all the problems. But, you know, in a permissive parenting situation, kids are, kids often feel unloved because they feel that they don't have, if they don't have any boundaries, they feel like their parent doesn't care about them.
So it's important that, you know, in mindful parenting, we talk about the middle path, the middle path of parenting, and we want. To we, we want to create boundaries for our kids, so that, and then we want to create freedom within those boundaries, right? So we create boundaries of safety. You do have to brush your teeth every night, and then we have freedom within those bounds.
So for at least my family and money of course, is not a topic. We talk about a lot in mindful parenting, but in my family, the approach we've taken to this is that we have some boundaries around money, and then we have a lot of freedom within those boundaries. So. In our family, we [00:27:00] use, um, a pre PA prepaid credit card system because our kids are a little older.
They can understand that. Right. And it's just so much easier than like having a list dollar bills
Nate: in my house when I was, uh, same age as your kids at that time, my mom called it my checkbook. Uh, she, she had a slip of paper, something, you know, somewhere in her purse where she, at the beginning of the month, she wrote a 10 on the top and she just minused all the dollars I would spend.
So it's the same, same thing. It's not exactly prepaid, but it was kind of my version of that. So yeah, I understand that world.
Hunter: Yeah. And so what, for us, we create some boundaries within that, which is, you know, I think we have 30% going to savings. So they get an allowance that is, um, he get half their age in dollars every week.
And, and 30% of that goes to savings. A certain [00:28:00] percentage. I can't remember maybe 10 or 20% of that goes to donate and the rest goes to spend. And so they. You know, it's kind of like the bucket system, this, you know, you can do that with coins. When they're littler. We had, we had buckets at some point where we were doing that we had spend save and donate buckets.
But, yeah. So when, when it's automatic, what I'm hoping to teach my kids is actually, my parents did this pretty well for me. Actually, they made, they made me save half of everything I earned. And I started working as a twelve-year-old like cleaning, cleaning out of bed and breakfast on the weekends and walking the walk and dogs.
So, um, Half of everything I earned had to go into savings. Half is kind of an extreme amount, I think. So we want to have some donate. We want to have some, some we, so we've adjusted that, but what it does, it just creates a habit of, this is just what we do, right. That ha that this amount of money goes into savings.
This is what we do. And then [00:29:00] occasionally. Daughter's ass. How much do I have? How much money do I have in savings? Oh, I have that much. And it, can I spend it on? And we say, well, this is for things like, you know, later when you want a car or college and things like that. And they're like, oh, okay. You know, so we, we explained to them what their savings are for.
And we talk about that, but then they're spending monies for them to spend, as they see fit and they can borrow against us. And so they, one daughter, one daughter borrow. For a huge fish tank upgrade when she's been a negative digits for like four months. Now, how painful is that? It's, she's, it's a pandemic.
So she's fun
Nate: lessons in there, you know? Um, I, I don't know how long it's, how long do you think it will take her to get up?
Hunter: I think she's probably at least a month away still.
Nate: Wow. So it's like an eternity for a child, you know, but that's awesome that that's a lot of, you know, [00:30:00] um, I, I really believe in, um, in allowing your children to learn lessons that aren't too, um, It really don't hurt them too bad, you know, one month without being able to go to the store and get a candy is not really a big deal.
Um, so I think that's actually something that I would like to do as well. Uh, cause I don't, you know, as a, you know, my profession, I don't love debt. In fact, I kind of hate that, but now's the time to learn how painful that is. Right. Um, so you're letting them learn these lessons and I'm interested to know maybe, uh, uh, the lessons that come with the spending.
Do they ever regret the money that they're spending?
Hunter: Well, we do talk about it sometimes. So one daughter spent. I don't know what she spent on some beanie boost.
And we talked about [00:31:00] like, when you know, about a year later, when she decided to donate them to like a little kid down the street, they were just cluttering up her room, you know? We talked about the money that she spent out on that a little bit. And I didn't, we didn't want to shame or blame her, but we just wanted to just notice that.
But you're absolutely right. Like we need to let our kids have their, have their, have freedom to make mistakes when they're young. And so I'm, I'm really happy for them to, you know, with things like homework, with things like their allowance to. Do some stupid stuff and kids are gonna do some stupid stuff, but it's much better, better for them to do some stupid stuff on things like that when they're in her house and protected by her family, rather than when they go to college.
And they, you know, in. Likewise and, you know, we want to scaffold them to these choices. And that was another thing I learned in for them, from them being in the Montessori [00:32:00] system. In fourth grade, they were given a weekly planner and in the Montessori system, they have these three hour work periods and they're allowed to choose, you know, they have a certain things they need to get done during the week, and they're not allowed to choose how they structure their work time in fourth grade to get those things done.
So it's not like we all do X at this time. You know, if, if that's you want to work on reading while everybody, you know, people, people are all doing this sort of more individualized work, but they get to have the experience of responsibility for. Outcomes and making mistakes. And to me, I was like, yes, this makes so much more sense for them to have a responsibility and to potentially ness it up, but to do it when you're.
You know, 10 rather than when you're 18 makes a lot more sense. Yeah. And
Nate: the consequences are so much higher when you're 18. I mean, uh, they feel, they might feel similar because when you're young and [00:33:00] you're 10 and, um, you make a mistake, it's the end of the world, but it's the end of your little tiny ten-year-old world.
Versus when you're 18, you make the mistake of pulling out, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt to go to school. You don't even know the consequences because your parents have saved you your whole life. Hm. And the, on the other side of the, uh, of that argument or, or of that idea is the punishment.
You mentioned something you don't want to punish your children. And I know in your book, you talk about not punishing kids. And I agree with that as well. Um, because life has its own punishments. So if you, if you let your children experience life, they will experience punishment and you help them Wade through those waters.
So, um, I actually really like, and, and truthfully did not ever think about boundaries, uh, or, or, um, you know, your buckets with money. Um, I didn't think of those as well as, as in this [00:34:00] family we save and here's why, and so it's an automatic, it doesn't feel like I'm making you save. It's just what you do. And then with your spending money, you have freedom.
And that is, um, I think that would be. That's kind of, uh, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm writing these down by the way. Not right now, but all these ideas I have for my kids when they actually know what to do with any money. And I I'm going to do the debt thing because I'd like to have my boundary be, oh, in this house, we don't borrow money, but in this world that just doesn't seem like a possibility, you know, people borrow money all the time.
That's what the world is. It's like telling your children, your child, you're not allowed to. It have any screen time when they're 10 or 14 well technologies in this world. Yes. Right. So, I mean, you can try, but, uh, in the end they'll just resent you. So, um, there was the, the thing I want to dig a little deeper on is the shame part.
[00:35:00] I think I heard you say shame. Okay. In the moment when you're really out of protection for not wanting your child to do something wrong. Um, I think we ha parents, a lot of times can get in the habit of shaming their children to do, do something they want them to do in that moment. Can you talk about shame a little bit, how you try to avoid it and, um, maybe.
Acknowledge, at least the, the pain that might come for the parent, if they let their child fail.
Hunter: Sure. You know, shame, Bernay brown talked about shame and shame. Is this feeling of like, I am bad. Whereas guilt is the feeling of I did something bad and we know that guilt can be healthy and corrective. But shame kind of leaves us in a pitiful, sad hole where we don't feel like we can do anything at all.
[00:36:00] So, yeah. So we want to avoid shaming our kids. And I guess I want to kind of pull this back just a bit because where this. Shaming voice starts is this sh this shaming voice that may come out in difficult moments, it starts within us. And so many of us have a habit of shaming ourselves. When we make a mistake.
So you yell at your kid, you scare him and you say, oh my gosh, I'm a terrible parent. I suck. How could I do this? I shouldn't have done this. What's wrong with me. Right. And we, this is a very common way of thinking. Almost universally. Right? And so this voice harsh voice of shaming and blaming internally, this can become a habit and I'm want to point it out and pull [00:37:00] it out because we.
Sometimes we think that this judgmental, harsh voice is useful and helpful in order to make change. But what we do know is that when we shame and blame ourselves, we are left in a pitiful hole and we're not able to begin a new again. And this can be at Boyce. That's changed. This voice, if you have it within you, dear listener, or you Nate, that it does eventually come out, it is a voice that will come out in difficult moments with your kids and they will absorb it.
It will come out over 18 years. I promise. And so it really. Behooves us to start to transform that voice inside, start to offer some more compassion and understanding inside. And know what that does for us is that allows us to then offer some more compassion and understanding on the outside to when your child is freaking out, because you [00:38:00] don't have the right toothbrush and.
You know, that gives you the, like, if you're practicing that compassion inside, you're much more likely to respond with compassion on the outside. So. Practicing self-compassion is simple, but not easy. It requires that we start to have the mindfulness, have the awareness to be able to see and understand the shaming voice to notice, oh, that's the way I'm talking to myself.
And as we start to notice, just the simple act of noticing starts to interrupt it, which is really a win right there. But then when we notice it, then we can say, Oh, there's this like harsh mean voice. I know I'm not alone in this. So many other people have this and this piece of like reflecting on the fact that probably in a world of 7 billion people, probably about million people at any given moment are feeling whatever you're feeling that is [00:39:00] not you.
That this is a really hard moment. And, and everybody makes mistakes. And. Uh, many people, maybe almost urine over universally are yelling at their kids and feeling frustrated. And just knowing that it's hard that and allowing ourselves to remember and to remind ourselves of that common humanity is really, really important.
And then finally, to then to start to practice talking to ourselves as we would talk to a dear friend, and this may feel like weird and strange and uncomfortable at first. But I promise you, it is something that can be learned and practice and, and can grow and change and use. So you might say to yourself, that was a hard moment.
You know, I was, you know, these things happened, this was difficult. How, what would you say to a dear friend who is suffering in the same way as you were in that moment? So it's really important to start. [00:40:00] Instead of that shaming voice, start to practice that self compassionate voice inside. And what that does is it helps us be more compassionate for our kids, but also helps us to bounce back better, helps us to give ourselves some grace and then we're able to.
Begin a new and be more present and more aware and kinder with our kids if we're not stuck in a pitiful hole of shame. Um, so it's really win-win win.
Nate: Yeah. Yeah. I th yeah, I think that, um, that, that was pretty powerful in the way that you talk to yourself. But I think that the other piece is that if you don't talk like that, Let's just be honest.
A lot of the times those feelings could come from our parents.
Hunter: Yeah. Right. Of course. Yeah.
Nate: And I think that I've seen this, um, uh, and working with adults, um, that really, they make decisions to avoid [00:41:00] guilty feelings. When as adults, you would think, at least if you were, if you weren't thinking for yourself, you're thinking for someone else, you would think, why don't you just make the best decision available, but not about guilt, just about, you know, with, with money or with whatever it is, you know?
Um, why is guilt in the picture? Just make the best choice and move on? Well, because my dad yelled at me every time I did something bad. My dad didn't but their debt, their parents, a lot of times did. And what I've noticed is that they will do, this is adult. They will do just enough to get the reward that they need from their parents or the reward that they want from money.
Um, uh, more direct examples. I recently had someone that did exactly what they needed to do in order to get their parents, to give them a down payment on their home. And their rest of their financial life was a mess. Right. And it's, and you're thinking you're literally driven [00:42:00] by shame. If there's no shame or, or guilt, actually guilt involved with this decision, you're off the rails rather than, um, you know, just thinking through each decision and making the best choice.
So this is, uh, this has long-term effects. I believe on children when really our goal of children is to raise them to be good adults.
Hunter: Oh, yeah. I mean good people. And we can see those, Jen, you know, I talk a lot about generational patterns and when we can, with mindfulness practice, we can start to become aware of our own motives.
We can start to become aware of are the sensations in our body or feelings, all these different things. We just develop clearer seeing in every aspect of our lives. And we. When we have generational patterns like that, if they're completely unconscious, we're going to act from them. But if we can start to develop our awareness, [00:43:00] you know, and I really am a big advocate of a meditation practice, even if it's a really small for everybody to start to build that awareness, awareness muscle.
As we start to build that awareness, we can start to see. See when these patterns are triggered and when we can start to see the one that is when patterns are triggered, that's when we have freedom, that's when we actually have true freedom. And it's similar with the shame, like when we can offer ourselves compassion, that's when we have the freedom to just make the best choice available to us.
Right. And, and there's, there's a freedom involved in becoming aware of and healing. Some of those old.
Nate: Yeah, that actually makes me a little emotional thinking about the idea of giving your child freedom by allowing them to not have a guilt in their life, or at least when they're adults, they don't need to have guilt around money.
They need to make, you know, have be free to make the best decision for themselves. I wanted to ask you a [00:44:00] question that, uh, We, uh, we, we, we try to ask each one of our guests, so it, it's kind of coming on the heels of an interesting topic with guilt and shame. Uh, don't feel any guilt when I ask you this question.
Um, but, um, we, I want to ask you, what's the one mistake that you have made with money that you hope your kids don't repeat.
Hunter: Ooh, let's see.
Nate: Or, or let's, let's reframe this. What's the one mistake that you have made with money that you hope your kids do repeat, but not when the stakes are too high.
Hunter: I'll answer the first one, the one mistake that I made with money that I hope my kids don't repeat.
Is that in college? When car number one broke. I decided, I said, oh, I'm gonna do a little bit of, a little bit of an upgrade. Get this other new car, not a new car, but this other car [00:45:00] and spend the money on it. And then three months later, let the oil run out of that. Destroyed that car
Nate: taken care of kind of probably a classic, uh, first car, which is not so nice.
So you didn't know how to take care of the, the nicer car when she bought it? Is that what happened?
Hunter: It wasn't, it wasn't like a, it wasn't a newer car, but it was just a little bit of a nicer car. And I don't know, I just, I didn't, I didn't have enough knowledge about how to take care of my higher priced items.
That was, which was my car. And that it would have been helpful too, to know how to take care of my, my investment, right. Like to take care of the investment in my vehicle. And so I was then writing years after that.
Nate: It was a good lesson. I have a similar story about letting the oil run out of my car. Luckily it was my first, 1992 Jeep Cherokee was I [00:46:00] think my first car. And, um, I think I may have told this story before. I'm not sure, but, uh, after that car I drove home. So I learned a great lesson. I bought the bad car.
First, let the oil run out of bad gas mileage. I drove Honda's after that. And so this day I'm a Honda family. So first car lessons are just filled with, with. Did you just great little nuggets of wisdom
Hunter: actually. So that car was like a second car, but I think that the lesson from my very first car was a good one.
You know, I grew up in a, a lower middle-class family. My mom was a nurse and my dad made signs and we basically lived on her salary. And so there wasn't a ton of money for everything, but I, like I said, I'd been working since I was 12. So. I did save up money from, for my, you know, I bought myself my own car.
You know, my first car, it was $500 car. It was a 1982 Subaru GL and it [00:47:00] addressed spots on the side, but it lasted for two years. Just long enough for me to go to college and, uh, yeah. It was, I was proud of being able to save up and buy myself my own car Mike, cause my brother didn't have his own car. He still had to buy her borrow mom's car.
And he was three years older than me.
Nate: Yeah. I mean, um, what a shame it would be, uh, for your parents to have stolen that experience from you by buying you right. Yeah, right. I mean, I think that, uh, the worst thing they could do sometimes is take away your, your small little struggle that in the moment feels so big, you know, to save up $500 when, when you're that age is like, it's a huge mountain to climb, but.
You know, it's, it's kind of what probably has shaped your view on how hard it is to save money now. So, uh, I'm hoping that, uh, that my, my children will be the hunter instead of the Hunter's brother where, uh, they have to drive my car, but there'll be [00:48:00] saving.
Hunter: Yeah. I think that, uh, my experiences working, I really want my kids to be able to work because I really think my experiences working just helped me realize like that.
It's figureoutable, it's doable, you know? And, um, and it's been an interesting journey because I've started, you know, I run my own business and that business ran started with, I had maybe 300 bucks in the bank account. I have a good camera and, uh, And now it sustains my family. So I now, as an entrepreneur, I really see the value of believing that it, everything is figureoutable and taking those slow, steady steps towards what your vision is.
Nate: Yeah. Well, that's great. Um, we're kind of to the end here. So T tell, uh, our audience a little bit more about, uh, either your business or just where they can find you and maybe the best way to get in touch.
Hunter: Sure. Um, you can [00:49:00] find me a mindful mama mentor.com and you can learn about the mindful parenting course and membership.
We've got an amazing, it's really strong community of over 400 families all around the world. Um, I teach a mindful parenting teacher training and you can find the book raising good humans there and the podcast, the mindful mama podcast. And, uh, and should you want the behind the scenes of my life? You can go over to Instagram and find me at mindful mama.
Nate: Awesome. Thank you so much for being on hunter. It was a pleasure speaking
Hunter: with you. Thank you so much, Nate. I really appreciate it. It's been enjoyable.
Ben: And if you have a question about taxes, investing extra money or financial parenting, visit physician, family.com, where you can ask us a question or send your question to [email protected] or call our answer line at (503) 308-8733 again, 5 0 3 3 0 8 8 7 3 3.
[00:50:00] Hunter: Thank you for listening to the physician, family financial advisors podcast. Is there a question you would like answered on our next show? Go to physician, family.com to record your question while you're there, sign up for our newsletter and gain access to tools you can use to turn worries about taxes, investing in extra money into a lifelong feeling of financial security.
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