Nate Reineke (00:13)
Hello physician moms and dads. I'm Nate Renneke, certified financial planner and primary advisor.
W. Ben Utley (00:20)
I'm Ben Utley, Certified Financial Planner and the Service Team Leader here at Physician Family. Well folks, today we have a very special guest. He's a friend and colleague of mine named Ken Aramita. Ken is a CPA who practices in California β and across the nation and he specializes in tax preparation and accounting for self-employed physicians. So today we're going to get some insights, some tax tips, and some things that you can use in your life
Probably whether you're self-employed or not self-employed. Ken, welcome to the show.
Kenneth Eremita (00:52)
Thanks for having me on.
Nate Reineke (00:53)
So Ken, β I want to hear a little bit about you. So you do tax and accounting, work for self-employed physicians. And that's a pretty specific focus, right? Just like us. β How did you figure that out? How'd you land on self-employed physicians?
Kenneth Eremita (01:06)
That's right. Yeah.
β Well, β I guess I kind of fell into it, honestly. β I started my career in public accounting, like other β folks pursuing that career, you know, at firms, β kind of worked my way up at progressively larger firms until I kind of, you know, realized that I wanted to do something on my own and perhaps not work in, you know, with big corporations. And so β
You know, I was pretty young at the time and I β kind of left to start my own thing. I was like 25, β had some savings and stuff like that. And then β when it came time to market, I think that's when I kind of realized that being a good tax β professional does not necessarily mean you're, good at figuring out who your, your market base is. And so it took me some time. It definitely took me some time to kind of figure it out, but β
W. Ben Utley (02:03)
Okay.
Nate Reineke (02:04)
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth Eremita (02:09)
been very fortunate. My stepmom is a physician. And
so she connected me with my first client who was a self-employed physician. And so, you know, I kind of got an understanding β of self of physician finances from that client, that one client. And over time, I started talking to more of her friends and getting referrals. And that became something that
W. Ben Utley (02:13)
Thank
Kenneth Eremita (02:39)
I just knew. β And so at some point, β I decided that would be a good, you know, β focus and niche because it seemed like a lot of people that were coming to me were saying, Hey, you know, I got like this tax guy and it's always this fire drill at the end of the year. I have to figure out how much money I have saved so I can pay this tax bill and I don't want to do that anymore. And so I said, okay. Yeah.
Nate Reineke (03:05)
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth Eremita (03:06)
I get this. I've seen this before. And so I kind of realized that that's a lot of value that I'm providing. And so that's when I decided to focus on that niche.
W. Ben Utley (03:17)
Thanks.
Nate Reineke (03:20)
Yeah, we love people like you because β we hate when people have to set aside too much money for their taxes because they don't know how much they're going to pay and then they can't invest and it's always this waiting game to get the money in the market. β so when they have someone like you by their side, they get to invest confidently. It's always β stressful when they don't know what their tax bill is going to be and they have to park as much money as they can to save me account till the end of the year.
W. Ben Utley (03:49)
Now you said we love people like Ken. There's another element of Ken that I really like. So β Ken's married, he's got children. β Can you just give us a tiny little sliver of home life? Because everybody who's listening to us has got kids, want some or had some, right?
Kenneth Eremita (04:06)
Yeah, so β I am a father of a 16 month old boy and yeah, got married a few years back and we're pretty fortunate to have our boy now and yeah, that's a little bit of home life. β Was up last night around... β I just like the way he smiles, honestly. I like making him laugh. β
W. Ben Utley (04:25)
What does he do that's cool?
Nice.
Nate Reineke (04:34)
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth Eremita (04:35)
He likes being held upside down. So I like holding them upside down, throwing them on the bed, throwing them against pillows. He really enjoys that.
Nate Reineke (04:37)
yeah.
W. Ben Utley (04:43)
Pediatricians, hold your ears.
Nate Reineke (04:43)
Yep.
W. Ben Utley (04:50)
Nice.
Nate Reineke (04:50)
I have the same stories and the same shocks and horror in my wife's face that I'm sure you see every day as you're throwing them against the pillows.
Kenneth Eremita (05:00)
Yeah, and you know, definitely had those freak outs where we go to the emergency room and like, what the heck, you know, hope he's okay. And so learning and then it's
W. Ben Utley (05:00)
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
Nate Reineke (05:08)
Yeah. Yeah.
W. Ben Utley (05:11)
Do you feel,
you know, I went to the ER a couple of times with my kids and I got there and I just felt helpless. Like there's these things beeping around me and there's people hurrying and scurrying around and hearing strange sounds, unusual smells. My kid's in a bed looking sicker than she's ever looked, even though she's not terribly sick. And it's just, I have to imagine that the way I felt about having my kid in the ER would have to be a little bit like how some physicians feel.
when it comes time to like figure out their self-employed taxes, right? They got all these receipts, they got all these revenues, expenses, don't know what you can deduct. know, there people scurrying around telling them what they can do with their taxes and not. you know, I think a lot of physicians come to us and they come to the show thinking, I should know this. I should know this, right? But when I flipped the script and I say, β I was in the ER, I should know this, they all laugh.
Nate Reineke (05:46)
Mm.
W. Ben Utley (06:09)
Right? Because that's silly. That's silly. And what it comes down to is smart people hire help. Right? Smart people know, they don't know everything. And that's what like to have you on, smart person.
Kenneth Eremita (06:10)
Yeah.
Nate Reineke (06:14)
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth Eremita (06:21)
Thanks. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny that, you know, lot of the comments that physicians will make will be like, this is your first kid, isn't it? And it's like, yeah. How'd you tell?
W. Ben Utley (06:31)
You
Nate Reineke (06:33)
Yep. All right, Ken. Well, let's get into some questions here. β So the first one I wanted to talk about is some people are under the impression that when you make more money that they pay more in taxes. And we know that isn't exactly right. But can you explain what it means to have a marginal tax structure?
W. Ben Utley (06:34)
Hmm.
Kenneth Eremita (06:57)
Yeah, so I think what people can sometimes get confused about is there are different thresholds with your earnings to where once you get past a certain threshold, β your tax bracket goes up. So you're paying a higher tax rate. But what most people or what some people confuse is they think that β now that you're in this new above this threshold in this in this new
W. Ben Utley (07:01)
you
Kenneth Eremita (07:25)
β bracket that all of your income is going to be taxed at that level, when in reality it's just that income above that threshold that's being taxed at that level.
W. Ben Utley (07:36)
So to break it down, it's like from zero to a certain amount, you pay
I don't know what's the lowest marginal tax bracket. We don't even think about that anymore because we never see it. Lowest marginal.
Kenneth Eremita (07:44)
Yeah. So it's like zero
to, yeah, for filing joint, zero to 20, around 25K, you're paying about 10%. 25K to 100K, it's about 12%. And then like 100 to 200, yeah.
W. Ben Utley (07:53)
Yeah. Yeah.
Okay, so stop there, stop there. So the
10 % you pay on that first bracket, and then you get into the 12 % bracket. So what I hear you saying, and I just wanna clarify this for everybody, that because you're in the 12 % bracket, you only pay 12 % on the money that's in that bracket from about 50 to 100K. Everything that's below that, sorry, 25 to 50K, everything that's below 25K is taxed at only 10%. So we have listeners that are in the...
Kenneth Eremita (08:19)
Great.
W. Ben Utley (08:27)
24 % commonly, I believe 37 is the top, is that right? 37 is top marginal rate nowadays. So, you know, if you're making a million dollars a year, you're not paying $370,000 worth of taxes because of your 37 % bracket. You're paying 37 % on a certain amount above a threshold. And everything below that threshold goes at less than 37%.
Kenneth Eremita (08:33)
That's right.
Absolutely correct.
W. Ben Utley (08:50)
Yeah,
I've actually encountered physicians who thought that if they made money beyond a certain point, they would lose all of it to taxes to the point that they're like, now I don't think I want to work anymore because I don't, I don't want to lose my lose all my income. I'm like, that's not how it works. You're always better off making more money, even if you β pay a little more taxes as you go.
Nate Reineke (08:59)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (09:12)
Okay.
Nate Reineke (09:14)
Yep. Okay. So this is one that I hear about a lot. β Sometimes physicians will incorporate, and by the way, sometimes they don't know why. Someone just told them to, okay? β The reason why is to avoid FIC attacks. So β tell us who that strategy is right for and maybe how it works.
W. Ben Utley (09:28)
Mm hmm. Yeah.
Nate Reineke (09:42)
and what a physician might do with that strategy that gets them or keeps them out of trouble with the IRS.
W. Ben Utley (09:48)
and start by telling us what FICA tax is.
Kenneth Eremita (09:51)
Okay, yeah, so FICA tax is basically the payroll tax that you pay on all your wages. So it doesn't matter if you work for someone else or for yourself, β you're paying into β Social Security and Medicare. Those are the two components. And so the strategy of incorporating β is usually good for folks who are β getting a significant amount of money through contract work.
W. Ben Utley (10:06)
Okay.
Kenneth Eremita (10:21)
And those contracts β pay quite a bit higher than an equivalent wage for that specialty. And so the idea being that if you're running, when you incorporate and you have to pay yourself a reasonable wage, β there's money above and beyond that reasonable wage that can be just taken as distributions and you're not paying
W. Ben Utley (10:42)
So, thank you.
Kenneth Eremita (10:48)
any payroll tax on it.
any FICA attacks.
W. Ben Utley (10:50)
Mm.
Nate Reineke (10:52)
How much do you save? Can we work with a really easy example? Because you said reasonable wage. That's a real IRS term, So use real round numbers. So let's say a reasonable wage determined by you, the IRS, how does that work?
Kenneth Eremita (11:00)
Right.
W. Ben Utley (11:02)
Buzzy.
Kenneth Eremita (11:03)
Yeah.
Yeah, it is.
Yeah, it's it's determined by the business owner, basically. And then the IRS can scrutinize on that and say, OK, is this actually reasonable? β The best way to support that that wage, that amount is to look at β BLS data like the Bureau of Labor and Statistics. They'll usually tell you in which geographic region for which specialty
Nate Reineke (11:20)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth Eremita (11:44)
those wages typically are, like the low end through the high end. And so you wanna choose somewhere in the middle or somewhere that makes sense, that's reasonable, basically.
Nate Reineke (11:59)
Mm-hmm. So.
Kenneth Eremita (12:00)
So if you choose something
out of it, can get in typically people, β where they run into trouble is when they choose something very low, that is not even, you know, like an unheard of wage for that specialty.
Nate Reineke (12:10)
Right.
W. Ben Utley (12:13)
Let me throw out an example to put some numbers with this to our listeners. You can tell me if this is a little jacked up, but let's say I'm a doc and my net income, the money I make after I pay all my bills and bill all my patients is $600,000.
and you look in the BLS and you see, oh, a reasonable comp for this person is $250,000. You set wages to 250, so you're taking home about $20,000 a month, right? But then you got that other $350,000 that's on top. Am I right so far? Okay, and so the FICA tax that is saved is, if I'm correct, is 15.3 % about.
Kenneth Eremita (12:47)
Right. That's right.
Yeah, on...
W. Ben Utley (12:58)
But there's also
some of that Medicare continues even though the social security drops out,
Kenneth Eremita (13:05)
Right, yeah, so the social security drops off around 170 and then it's just Medicare after that. And then there's like an extra percent on Medicare after 200.
W. Ben Utley (13:11)
β huh. Okay.
Okay. So then what is the like the potential tax savings for someone who's I call this playing the FICA game. Long ago when I incorporated my business, I had a CPA who was a partner and he called it the FICA game. what if I'm in that boat, I'm making 600 and paying myself 250, I'm taking home a 350 in profits or distributions. Like roughly what is my tax savings for this?
Kenneth Eremita (13:41)
Yeah, so generally what I find is that the reasonable wage is always going to somewhere close to at least 200 typically. And so for the sake of this generalization, you would assume that someone is going to be paying themselves at least 200,000. And so at that level of wage, the Medicare,
W. Ben Utley (13:52)
Mm-hmm.
See
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth Eremita (14:08)
component on payroll taxes, 2.9%. So 2.9 % times their distribution is essentially their tax savings.
W. Ben Utley (14:12)
Mm-hmm.
So if they're distributing 400,000, it's about 3 % of 400,000. So we're looking at, wow, what, $12,000? I guess you have to kind of weigh the math here and figure out if that $12,000 worth it, right? Because now you have payroll to run and the work that goes with that and payroll service and maybe a separate return if you've chosen to incorporate, not to mention, it just feels like more administrivia to me, right?
Kenneth Eremita (14:26)
β yeah.
Right.
Yep. There's going to be more administration fees. β And then there's also some states will charge some sort of corporate tax sometimes like California. It's one and a half percent times net. yeah. So it's, and especially now with the, tax law changes, they're closing the PTE loophole likely. And so, and that was a big, another big reason to incorporate was essentially
W. Ben Utley (14:52)
Yeah. Yeah.
Nate Reineke (15:03)
Hmm.
W. Ben Utley (15:11)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Kenneth Eremita (15:18)
the business owner could write off a portion of their personal state income tax through their business and they're closing that loophole. So, yeah.
W. Ben Utley (15:24)
Yeah. Yeah. I think,
Nate Reineke (15:26)
Mmm.
W. Ben Utley (15:27)
I think salt cap and PTE is that's another show. And that's assuming that it survives this, big, β barbaric bill. Okay, Nate, think, I think we hammered FICA game.
Kenneth Eremita (15:32)
Yeah. β
Yeah, exactly.
Nate Reineke (15:39)
Hehehehe
Yeah. Yeah.
So I wanted, there's one piece here that I want everyone to hear, which is, know, Ken said 200,000. So if you, β you know, you're incorporating, plan to pay yourself 50,000. That's a big red flag, right? You're asking for an audit. Okay. Okay. β Let's talk about β tax saving strategies. So can you walk us through some
Kenneth Eremita (16:00)
Yeah.
W. Ben Utley (16:01)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kenneth Eremita (16:04)
Yeah.
Nate Reineke (16:13)
key tax saving strategies doctors often miss out on, especially docs in high income brackets.
Kenneth Eremita (16:21)
Yeah, I would say the biggest one is the pre-tax retirement strategy. So basically if they have a 401k, 457, 403b, they should be maxing all their contributions, pre-tax contributions to those plans, especially if they're in a higher tax bracket. And what I would consider higher is anything above 24%, which is
anything above basically $400,000. Once you're cracking over $400,000, they should be, you know, maxing their pre-tax retirement contributions.
W. Ben Utley (17:01)
Yeah.
Nate Reineke (17:02)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (17:03)
Nate, we gonna get into Roth versus regular here?
Nate Reineke (17:06)
Oh my gosh, I'm fighting the urge. Should I fight it? Should I fight it or not?
Kenneth Eremita (17:10)
Yeah
W. Ben Utley (17:12)
Well, you know,
I think as a public service announcement, we should spend two minutes talking about why physicians in the top marginal tax bracket should think twice about choosing Roth 401k. So Ken, β this is a perennial favorite on the show. We did a show in January. We were predicted the most asked question for the year. And in fact, it has been the most asked question. So β with regard to just 401ks, not IRA folks, just 401ks.
Nate Reineke (17:17)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (17:41)
Roth versus regular. I'm making a million dollars a year. Roth versus regular.
Kenneth Eremita (17:45)
yeah, so the idea of going pre-tax is that you're at a higher tax, you're earning a lot more right now, and so you're at a higher tax bracket. And so if you can defer taxes paid on those contributions until your retirement when you're not working and you're at a lower tax bracket, then you're effectively
saving money on taxes. It's arbitrage on the tax rates that you're playing.
Nate Reineke (18:11)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (18:12)
Nice, nice. Okay. So now, now we don't have to save kittens from trees or put out any house fires because we have done our public service for the day by telling the high earning physicians to don't touch the raw 401k. All right. I feel, I feel relief here, Nate. How about you?
Nate Reineke (18:25)
Yes.
Kenneth Eremita (18:27)
Yeah.
Nate Reineke (18:28)
Yeah, yes,
I get this question. I still get this question all the time. yeah. Okay, so you mentioned 400,000. So you said, and I think you've told me in the past, that sole practitioners experience a high level of tax efficiency when they make around 400,000. Can you unpack that for me?
W. Ben Utley (18:35)
Attention gone. Yeah.
Kenneth Eremita (18:37)
Yeah.
Yeah, so there's something that with the way the tax code is written, there are phase outs in certain deductions like the QBI, qualified business income deduction, which ultimately takes 20 % off of your corporate distribution. So let's say your corporate distribution was 100,000, it'll now be 80,000 in taxable income.
that phases out once you start crossing that $400,000 barrier. β And then in addition, you jump from the 24 % tax bracket to the 32 % tax bracket. And so there's just like some, yeah, there's just some little things that, β yeah, that just kind of increase the rate of taxes you're paying on that additional money you're earning.
W. Ben Utley (19:27)
Okay.
Yikes.
Nate Reineke (19:47)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, so one more unit of work gets you less. So, you know, I've thought about this, you know, Ben, you started the top of the episode kind of talking about, you know, working more isn't worth it. There is sort of a sweet spot. You know, it sounds like it's 400 grand. So if you can live a great life on 400 grand, probably shouldn't kill yourself to make 450. But, you know, if you're not killing yourself, go ahead and make 450 is what I'm hearing.
W. Ben Utley (20:15)
And you
know, that's, 400 is, uh, like it just in our experience, that's a sweet spot in terms of planning too. mean, if you have reasonable college goals and you start at an earlier age and you know, you're, planning, uh, a slightly early retirement and you've got that 400 K of income, you're, know, if you're, if you play your cards right, you're good. Like that, that can work out for you.
Kenneth Eremita (20:16)
Yeah.
Nate Reineke (20:37)
Yep.
Yeah. think without lifestyle creep, $400,000 a year is a fantastic life, fantastic retirement. β I'm with you. That 400 seems to be the magic number when I do budgeting too.
W. Ben Utley (20:51)
But yeah.
Especially in places
like Missouri and Kansas and Tennessee and Arkansas and Nebraska, know, states with lower cost of living. I mean, you're living like a king on that 400 K.
Nate Reineke (21:05)
Talk about arbitrage. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Ken, what do doctors get wrong about taxes?
W. Ben Utley (21:07)
Yeah, geographic arbitrage, yes.
Kenneth Eremita (21:14)
β you know, I don't, I don't think I see a whole lot of like folks getting things wrong per se on like the actual tax code. β if they don't know something, doctors or the physicians that come to me are generally know that they don't know something and they just need help. And they're ready to, you know, ask for help. but I think the, where they can go wrong is when they're finding a tax professional and they're looking for someone, you know,
Nate Reineke (21:32)
Mm.
Kenneth Eremita (21:44)
who can do it for the cheapest price. If they're looking for kind of like tax services as a commodity, and they're just saying it's all the same, they get it done, they file it, looking for someone who is the cheapest, or let's say they want to go for someone who's extremely aggressive, β that's also another area where they can go.
Nate Reineke (22:03)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (22:04)
I heard it said one time, this is by a pension actuary, he said, when you pay with peanuts, you work with monkeys.
Nate Reineke (22:10)
Yeah.
Kenneth Eremita (22:13)
Yeah,
I mean, there's no fault to a lot of these other tax practitioners. They're probably very competent, but I think from a business point of view, for them to spend the time it takes to not only do the filing right, but to help the client with the planning, just takes more time and that requires more cost, basically.
W. Ben Utley (22:38)
I think there's another element to this too for self-employed physicians, which is the bookkeeping. Right? mean, β I think some people think bookkeeping is really easy. β I've done it. It's not difficult, but if you screw it up, it's pretty easy to do so and it might be hard to spot. And having maintained books now for, gosh, going on 20 plus years, I've been in and out of several bookkeepers. β
There's a lot of room for error there. And if it gets messed up, it takes forever to get it fixed. And this is one of the things I want to hear the listeners. I want to have the listeners here is that your service does this. You also do the bookkeeping. So you lift all that QuickBooks stuff off their shoulders. And not only that, you make it right.
Kenneth Eremita (23:22)
That's right. Yeah. So, you what I've, what I've found is that when, when a client wants to come to me and do their own books, um, generally they're, they're missing some deductions or they're recategorizing, you categorizing things wrong. And so I have to kind of fix it anyway. Um, and then also if, if they're a corporation, they have to run payroll and there's some nuances about payroll. Like if they have, you know, their self-employed health insurance benefits,
W. Ben Utley (23:37)
you
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Kenneth Eremita (23:51)
and they have a solo 401k for example, some of those items need to be reported as part of the wages. yeah, I mean, any any physician is completely capable of figuring it out. But I think it may not be worth their time for the amount of time it would take them to figure it out versus, you know, just paying for help. And then if you want to pick up an extra shift or, you know, case or something like that, it might just be
W. Ben Utley (23:58)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, one
Nate Reineke (24:20)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (24:21)
more case a year covers all the bookkeeping. Yeah. And I found when I was doing this long ago, or when we were little, that the interface between the bookkeeping software and the bookkeeping records and the payroll software was always fraught. Because, you know, the payroll rules are changing on a regular basis, varies from state to state. And just that connection, getting that right was really a mess.
Kenneth Eremita (24:21)
more efficient.
Yeah.
W. Ben Utley (24:47)
Always.
Kenneth Eremita (24:49)
Yeah, yeah, it's gotten better nowadays. I have everyone on QuickBooks and Gusto because those integrate very well.
Nate Reineke (24:58)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (24:58)
Love gusto.
Yeah. Had gusto for awhile. Yeah. Okay.
Nate Reineke (25:02)
Great. Okay, I'm gonna take us out with the final question, β If you're at a dinner party, someone asked you about your job, what is one thing you'd want everyone to know?
Kenneth Eremita (25:15)
β I think that Warren Buffett bragging, humble bragging about his low tax rate maybe 15 years ago haunts me to this day because everyone thinks that there's some magic way to pay 15 % or less of taxes on millions and billions of dollars or something. there's one, the tax law is much different compared to then and then two, β
Nate Reineke (25:24)
Mm-hmm.
you
Yeah.
Kenneth Eremita (25:46)
It requires a whole host of β complexity in organizational structure and just money β to achieve something close to that nowadays.
Nate Reineke (25:54)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (25:59)
Nice. Well, well put. wouldn't have expected to hear you say that, but it rings so true. I've encountered so many people that are like, I know there's gotta be some more way to save taxes. I'm like, you doing this? Yeah. Pop, pop, pop, pop. We go down the list. They're doing it all. And there's no, like you can't convince them that there's not any more way to get lemon out of, get juice out of that lemon.
Nate Reineke (26:05)
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth Eremita (26:15)
Yeah.
W. Ben Utley (26:21)
Like, you you reach the bottom. they always think there must be some magic trick that if I could just find the right CPA, you know, yeah. β
Kenneth Eremita (26:29)
Yeah, I mean, I've
looked at it because I've definitely been pushed on that. And I, you know, I look at it all the time and, know, there's, unfortunately there's not, there's just isn't a whole lot at this point with tax strategy. β ChatGPT can serve up the strategies. And I would say at this point, the value that I provide isn't, is maybe 20 % of the strategy and planning and 80 % is the compliance.
W. Ben Utley (26:45)
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth Eremita (26:55)
basically making sure everything's documented, everything, all the transactions are classified correctly. And that all, you know, every tax position we take is well supported in case the IRS ever asks. Cause that's, that's really, you know, a painful thing is going through and.
W. Ben Utley (26:55)
Yeah.
Nate Reineke (27:09)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (27:09)
Got
it.
So listeners, want you to hear something. So there is a limited list of tax strategies. And in my effort to cause people to realize that, you know, there is a bottom to this well, I actually wrote a page called tax strategies for doctors. It's easy to find. If you go to Google and you Google tax strategies for doctors, we come up as number one and have for like the last decade. So it's all there. Everything that I can think of is there, or at least everything I can think of that's legit is there. It's right there.
In fact, we were looking up a case the other day in ChatGPT and it found our tax strategy page and cited it. So, you know, there is a limit. before I take us out, Ken, tell us how we can connect with you. Where can we find you?
Kenneth Eremita (28:02)
Or yeah, just visit my website. It's keneremeda.com. K-E-N-E-R-E-M as in Michael, I, T as in Tom, A dot com.
W. Ben Utley (28:15)
Fantastic. Okay, Ken, thanks so much for being on today. Folks, β if you're looking for a financial advisor, you've got one here, visit physicianfamily.com and β click on that get started button. If you're not ready for that and you'd like to ask us a question or ask Ken a question, shoot your questions to podcast at physicianfamily.com. And until next time, remember you're not just making a living, you're making a life.
