Nate (00:13)
Hello, physician moms and dads. I'm Nate Rennicke, certified financial planner and primary advisor.
Chelsea Jones (00:20)
And I'm Chelsea Jones, also a certified financial planner and primary advisor here at Physician Family Financial Advisors.
Nate (00:27)
So we have had a couple encore episodes. I hope everyone listened to them and still enjoyed them. they're kind of the some episodes that people have reached out to us about, I guess, in the past and said that they liked. And partly because it's summer, so we travel, much like all the physician moms and dads listening. But the other reason was at least last week I was doing a sort of lecture for residents.
Which we don't talk a lot to the residents because we don't actually serve residents, but they're still important and they still have questions. So it's cool. I kinda got to be in a room with them and go back to basics and it was interesting. So thank you everybody for allowing me to do that by missing a podcast episode. you're doing your fellow residents a a service by listening to an old episode.
Chelsea Jones (01:25)
Mm-hmm.
Nate (01:25)
But today, Chelsea, we have Asking for a Friend and Four Good Questions. So I'm going to kick us off with our asking for a Friend question, and then we'll get to the to the rest of them today. So I finally finished residency and have an attending salary, but why do I still feel broke? And I like this asking for a friend one because most people don't.
Chelsea Jones (01:48)
Yeah.
Nate (01:53)
I mean, who what are you gonna do? You're gonna go tell your family and friends who aren't doctors that you make three, four hundred thousand dollars a year and you feel like you don't have any money? Like it's not very relatable, right? But it's very real 'cause we see it all day long. So so what do you think? What why do they still feel broke?
Chelsea Jones (02:04)
Mm-hmm.
I think one of the simplest answers is you one, you don't get paid right away. You have to work some before you get that first attending check. so that like first month might feel a little tight even though you have a higher salary. But whenever people transition from res residency to an attending salary, I see them buying a house or renting a bigger house than they had before.
Nate (02:17)
Mm-hmm.
Chelsea Jones (02:40)
Or depending on when they had children, they might be welcome expanding their family, so they have daycare added on. it's just when you're making more, you tend to move to an area that costs more, and so your expenses just naturally go up. And you're also making more, so you're able to save more. So you're probably deferring into your 401k or 403b, which is reducing your take-home pay. and
Nate (02:56)
Mm-hmm.
Chelsea Jones (03:11)
Similar to a question we had recently where it's like, I have credit card debt and I wanna invest and I wanna save. There's a lot of a a lot of things pulling at that new salary to where it can just feel overwhelming until you get on your feet and you get kind of settled into your new cash flow. And that overwhelm can turn into or can can give you that broke feeling.
'Cause you feel like there's all these things that you should be doing with your new higher income that it's just overwhelming and it makes you feel broke.
Nate (03:39)
Yeah.
Yeah. When w I I was just talking to residents. So it's it's this was a big portion of what they voted on for me to speak about, which was just lifestyle and cash flow in the first few years. what I w in all my research and you know, 'cause we we don't talk to residents every day. but in talking to them and doing some research for that presentation, what I'm f what I came to the conclusion of is while you're in training.
Chelsea Jones (03:57)
Mm.
Nate (04:18)
The obligations are piling up and you're like, I'm gonna get to that once I get some real money. I'm gonna get to that once I get some real money. So then you get to the point where you're making, let's say, four hundred thousand dollars a year. I mean, at the end of the day, after taxes, deferrals, maybe you moved to change jobs. I mean, that's really common. you know, you might have fifteen thousand dollars in that first paycheck.
Chelsea Jones (04:23)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nate (04:46)
But fifteen thousand dollars ba barely pays the bills and buys that new couch you've been waiting for. So it's you just need time. But I what if there are residents or are new attendings listening, they need to know that I have yet to see someone who is at least trying with their finances, not come out of that maybe a year or two later.
Chelsea Jones (04:51)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nate (05:12)
If you want to kind of supercharge that process, you would not buy the big house, you would not upgrade the car, you would not start spending the money this the even before it hits your your bank account. Because I'm telling you, you would feel like you had money if you did live like resident for a year or two. Not that I'm I'm asking you to do that, but the but the that's the clear answer. 10, an extra $10,000, $20,000 a month, it takes a few.
Chelsea Jones (05:25)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nate (05:41)
months or even a year to build up an emergency fund and get on track for all the savings and to upgrade even the small things in life, like just getting some help around the house with your children or buying a car. It just takes time. But a year or two later, you'll be you you won't feel like you have all the money in the world if you make a average physician salary, but you will not feel broke if you're doing if you're doing things a reasonable way.
Chelsea Jones (05:53)
Yeah.
Nate (06:09)
But this is just just on par for the course. This is how everyone feels. So you may not be doing anything wrong and still feel this way.
Chelsea Jones (06:22)
Mm-hmm. Yep. It just takes time to get on the other side. Okay. So our first first question comes from a double doctor family in Virginia. They said we need to put in a bathroom, another bedroom, and do some remodeling to our house. It feels like a lot, but we also hate the idea of moving. What should we do?
What do you think?
Nate (06:49)
Yeah.
I this is a tough choice and I got this question. th this is not a situation where they're stuck with a, you know, two percent mortgage. This isn't one of those situations. They have a a a normal more interest rate and this this is a classic example of kind of f making this a a money question when I'm not so sure that it is. So
Chelsea Jones (07:02)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nate (07:18)
Let's just imagine for a moment. I know it's not exact, but let's just imagine for a moment that instead of moving, or I'm sorry, if you moved, it would cost the same amount as remodeling. Because if you move to a house with another bathroom and you move to a house that's already been upgraded and has an extra bedroom, it's just gonna cost more money. So if it's the same price, this is not a money question. It is
Chelsea Jones (07:31)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nate (07:48)
Preference. So for these, this family, the benefit is not moving.
And for some reason that feels like like wrong to them. We have to do all this work, we have to spend all this money on this house, should we just move? It actually has nothing to
Chelsea Jones (08:09)
And do you know how long
they've been in this house?
Nate (08:12)
They've been in there for three years and they are they told me point blank we're the type that if we could we could never move again because the inertia of moving is so it sounds so terrible. Like I don't we don't like moving. so if you're in a a neighborhood you like with schools around you that you like or private schools around you that you like and you just are like, we just need another bathroom.
Chelsea Jones (08:28)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Nate (08:42)
Or we just need another bedroom and we don't want to move. There are major benefits to this because you don't have to think about how close you are to work. You don't have to, you know, anytime you move neighborhoods, you you may not like it. You may not like your new neighbors. So there are benefits to this. You're seeing it for some reason, your pr they're seeing their preference as potentially problematic, but it really is just a preference. Now, on the other side of this, I think it is
Chelsea Jones (08:56)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Nate (09:12)
The the value of not working with a contractor and not living in a construction zone for a year is often like misunderstood. That that that is brutal. I I have another family that they just did some remodeling and they have like two more projects they want to do and they drew a line in the sand and they said, We're not doing it this summer. I'm not living in a construction zone for another summer. Right. So those are the options you're weighing.
Chelsea Jones (09:22)
Uh-huh.
Nate (09:41)
But this is not usually not a financial question. Now there's fees involved with moving that you get to avoid, but also your contractor's gonna underbid you. So it it usually ends up being like it feels better to just move because getting a bigger mortgage is easier. It's harder to collect the cash, get a home equity line of credit.
Chelsea Jones (10:03)
Mm-hmm.
Nate (10:11)
Because nobody likes home equity. most people I work with, they would prefer just having a bigger mortgage than having a home equity line of credit. For whatever reason, it feels different to them. Maybe it's the higher interest, maybe it's that it just feels like a credit card that's 10 times the size of their normal credit card. But for f they don't like that. And so they'd rather just wrap it into a mortgage. But at the end of the day, it all needs to pay off, be paid off before you retire. None of it can affect your savings.
Chelsea Jones (10:24)
Mm-hmm.
Nate (10:40)
So the math of it all is is really less of the the issue, it is it is just which do you prefer, having construction at your house or moving and potentially changing schools and and neighborhoods.
Chelsea Jones (10:53)
Mm-hmm.
Nate (10:56)
So for this family, if you got the cash and moving sounds like the end of the world, just remodel.
Chelsea Jones (11:03)
Mm-hmm.
Nate (11:04)
And get lots of bids.
Chelsea Jones (11:05)
Okay. Our next question is from an oncologist in Washington. They said everybody online is saying I should pay my student loans off as fast as possible, then start investing. I'm not overly concerned about my loans, but I don't want to do the wrong thing. Should I invest or should I pay down my student loans aggressively?
Nate (11:26)
man, everybody online is a is a it's funny to hear because if you got into a different corner of the internet they'd be saying the opposite. Depends on which corner the i Well yes, but they also have different opinions. They all say different things, right? It's it's
Chelsea Jones (11:37)
Mm-hmm. People online have strong opinions. Yep.
different circumstances
for each.
Nate (11:48)
For everyone. And there's some people that are, you know, debt is the enemy. And there's other people that debt is good, it's useful. Let's let's set all that aside for now and make one thing really clear. Doctors' student loans, doctor situations, their income, everything about your money is different than the average person, which is what most most of the people online who have any reasonable following, they're not speaking.
Chelsea Jones (12:03)
Mm-hmm.
Nate (12:19)
a lot of times not speaking to you as a physician. They are speaking to the masses. So the masses, what they have in common with you, is that most people on average graduate from college and their their debt is equal to about one year's salary. So
Chelsea Jones (12:41)
Mm-hmm.
Nate (12:42)
Imagine someone that gets out of college and they make $50,000 a year, they might have $50,000 in debt. I think the average is actually $40,000 in four of income and $40,000 in debt. Now, as a physician, you also probably have that in common. You get out of training, you now make $300,000 or $400,000, and you might have three or four hundred thousand dollars in debt. So the ratio is the same, but here's the difference.
Chelsea Jones (12:53)
Mm-hmm.
Nate (13:09)
The amount of money that it requires you to pay your bills and live a reasonable life, you have a lot of excess money after that to pay down your loans and to save. The average person does not have that. If you make $40,000 a year, you don't have any excess money to be saving and paying your student loans on. You have to make a choice. Like you might have an extra $500 a month and that's all you got.
Chelsea Jones (13:21)
Mm-hmm.
Nate (13:39)
And so the the reason that those people should get crazy about their debt is that their debt is in the way of them making any sort of progress. And the reason that you don't have to act like them is that you can do both. You can make progress on your debt and be saving for college and retirement. So the question is: should I go all in on one thing?
Chelsea Jones (13:56)
Mm-hmm.
Nate (14:06)
And usually the answer is no. And here's why. You eventually have to pay down your student loans. That's the reality. it's and you're getting charged interest. But the reason that you should do a little bit of investing as well, or a lot of investing as well, is simply because time is not on your side, like the average twenty one year old who gets out of college. You are now in your 30s and you only have, you know.
Chelsea Jones (14:16)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nate (14:34)
You have ten less years, let's say, for compound interest to do its magic for you. So if that average person spent five more years paying off their loans and then they started to invest twenty percent of their income, they would still have more time than you for their for their for their investments to compound. So you have to do a blend of these two. Well, you don't have to do anything, Chelsea, but
Chelsea Jones (14:58)
Mm-hmm.
Nate (14:58)
You
I would recommend that you do a blend of these two things. You pay off your loans in a reasonable amount of time so they're not hanging over your head. And you invest. And most physicians, unless you're in a lower paid specialty and maybe your spouse doesn't work as well, most physicians can accomplish both. And the thing that they can't do is severe you know, severely upgrade lifestyle along the way. And so the student loans aren't in the way.
Chelsea Jones (15:01)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Nate (15:29)
Of you living a decent life. They're not in the way of you saving 20% of your income or 15% of your income. but they they are nagging at you. And for that reason, you can be slightly more or slightly less aggressive depending on how you feel about them. But, you know, a fixed interest rate of five or six percent of your student loans versus the projected.
Chelsea Jones (15:35)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nate (15:56)
compounding that your investing will do for you over an extra decade because you started investing now, most of the time, you know, in theory, you'll have more money if you do both than if you just go all in on student loans.
Chelsea Jones (16:02)
Mm.
Yeah. Yeah, 'cause it with the amount that doctors come out of with student loans, it even if they are paying it down aggressive, it would still take, you know, a while. So if you were to take that approach of knock out the student loans before you invest, not only are you losing the ten years compared to the average twenty one, twenty two year old college undergraduate graduate,
But you're also losing possibly another ten years of paying off the six figure debt when you could have been doing a little bit of both and and had money in the market earlier.
Nate (16:50)
Yeah. Yeah, you make that there's a kind of another point there is most most most physicians that I'm talking to about their student loans, they're like, I really want to pay this off in three years, two years, whatever. They make some some really aggressive number out there. And then I'm like, Well, how about five? So that you can like max out your Roths. And they're like, Well, you know, I'm not talking about letting these hang around for twenty years. That's crazy.
Chelsea Jones (17:03)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Right. Still a reasonable amount or time that you'll take to pay them off.
Nate (17:20)
Right? f f yeah.
Five, seven, sometimes even ten, or at least refinancing to ten for some flexibility and then paying it off a little earlier, you'll be you'll be just fine. You'll have all the things you need as long as you're also saving college, retirement, you know, decent house, and your loans will be paid off. So like why not take a path of least resistance and just kind of
Chelsea Jones (17:33)
Mm-hmm.
Nate (17:50)
Relax about this a little bit.
Chelsea Jones (17:53)
Yeah.
Yeah, 'cause what I've seen some doctors do is they did push to pay off the student loans, but then they come to me and they're like, I feel behind 'cause I've invested nothing. So
Nate (18:04)
Yeah. Yeah.
Now I have seen people d l the reality is this is this is
it's not in our best interest to say this, Chelsea. But without our help, with with physicians, without our help, and whether or not you did one or the other, you can, with brute force as a doctor, you will be able to retire. Like at some point, you can say, look, you know, we took five years off from doing the right thing. We need to save a ton of money, and you have the firepower to do it. That is a real
Chelsea Jones (18:28)
Mm.
Mm. It takes discipline,
Nate (18:41)
It at
Chelsea Jones (18:41)
but
Nate (18:42)
some point you have to become disciplined. But if you just decided I hate these loans so much that I'm gonna pay them off really fast, you will still be able to get those things that you want. You will still be able to retire and send your kids to college, even though you missed out on a few years of compound interest. The difference is the feeling about it. When people go all in on their student loans, they act crazy for three years. I did this. And I regret it.
Chelsea Jones (18:44)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nate (19:08)
Like I went crazy. I paid them off as fast as I could. All every dinner conversation was about how can we get out of these student loans. It was like I was making myself crazy about it. When if I would have just did it in one extra year, like I wouldn't be running our check I wouldn't be running our checking account down to zero every month and counting the tortillas in the in the in the cupboard to make sure that like, you know, I was rationing food. It was crazy.
Chelsea Jones (19:20)
You would have had a little more breathing room, yeah.
my goodness.
Nate (19:37)
It was crazy.
And I'm like, I don't want that for anyone, but of course, but you know, it's coming from the guy that that did it. So you can go my way and it will work, or you can go my new way and chill out a little bit and it will also work. But you'll just hopefully have a better feeling.
Chelsea Jones (19:41)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Okay, very good. Our next question comes from a double doc family in West Virginia. They said we're receiving a surprise increase in income this summer. it's about, I believe they said about $75,000 per year between the two of them, like annual increase. What should we do with the extra cash? And
Nate (20:17)
I wanna hear your
thoughts on this and then then I have some thoughts as well.
Chelsea Jones (20:22)
Yeah, well, some context, their plan is on track. they work in a university health system, and so with those jobs usually comes a rather generous like employer contribution to their retirement plan. so because of that, they their plan does not currently include like required backdoor Roth contributions. So they don't need it to be on track.
Nate (20:36)
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Chelsea Jones (20:51)
College is on track for their son, you know, everything looks good. And they're like, We're we're having this extra cash. I don't really know what to do with it. So the things that I usually look at are short term expenses, like set aside cash for a car if you need to replace your two thousand and five Honda. Right. and then once those are covered, retirement and college are on track. Do you want to pay down debt?
or do you want to kind of get ahead for college or retirement, meaning invest more? so with their mortgage with regular payments and no extra mortgage or principal payments, it's gonna be paid off before their retirement. and they have a a decent rate. It's not it's not two percent, but it's not crazy. and they're not really concerned with paying down debt super fast.
Nate (21:27)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Chelsea Jones (21:52)
But like I said, they're not maxing out their backdoor Roth yet. Cause and so that was the first thing that we did was we set up IRAs for them. and we started maxing out the backdoor Roth. so got that out of the way. So now all possible tax advantaged accounts are now being maxed. and we talked about that because they had asked, well,
Nate (21:57)
Yeah.
Chelsea Jones (22:20)
Like what basically what does investing do? Like what would that get us? So like what do we get from that? and I talked about, you know, flexibility for changing goals. If you start maxing out your Roth now instead of retiring at sixty five, maybe you could retire at sixty three when the time comes because you never know when burnout's gonna hit. We talked about opening a yeah, or health. we talked about opening a brokerage account as well.
Nate (22:37)
Mm-hmm.
Health.
Chelsea Jones (22:50)
because that a taxable account gives you all kinds of flexibility when it comes to not only retiring earlier, but if college is more expensive than you think, if do you have a surprise hundred thousand dollar renovation that you don't have the cash for, but you have an overfunded retirement fund with a brokerage account, it gives you a lot of flexibility to tap into that money if push comes to shove.
and could help you retire earlier. So we had considered that we had considered kind of jumpstarting college. because they intend on having more children, but they only have one right now. so I was like, if you want to get a jumpstart on college, you could open up an account in your name or, you know, put money in your son's five two nine and then just transfer it to the the other children once they're here.
but it gives you you take advantage of the compound growth starting now. so that's an option too. So we looked at all of the all of the investment options. we considered the debt, but like I said, it wasn't their only debts their mortgage and it's not looming or anything. so we decided to do kind of cushioning retirement by for sure maxing out the backdoor Roth contributions.
Nate (23:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Chelsea Jones (24:17)
And then we're gonna revisit possibly turning on taxable contributions.
Nate (24:21)
Yeah. So what I'm hearing, and this is pretty common, is you, you, you write, we start with a baseline plan. Like if you are working in a university, you might not have all the money in the world to save for an aggressive retirement. You're gonna be fine. You're gonna retire in your, you know, early mid sixties, but it's not like there's a bunch of free flowing cash where you're like, if we just went on one less vacation this year, we could retire at fifty five. That's just that's not the kind of cash we're talking about.
Chelsea Jones (24:23)
Later.
Yeah.
Nate (24:52)
So it's always good to start with a baseline plan. This is what's required. And then let's see how it goes with your lifestyle. but then at some point, most physicians figure out a way, to get a raise or change job. Maybe they would get out of the university and they make more money. and then you should circle back and see like what was there anything that is a good idea but not a must have, which you did. and you you touched on exactly what I was thinking. I have had
Chelsea Jones (24:59)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nate (25:21)
A few people this year where this has really come to fruition for them, they had extra money. They were saving for in a brokerage account, but it wasn't all that exciting for them to say, Hey, that extra thousand dollars you have, let's throw it in a brokerage account. So maybe one day in 30 years you could retire a year earlier. They're like, I think I'd rather go to Hawaii. You know, like, and so it's kind of like, okay, well, you know, and and so sometimes when you think of it that way, you're
Chelsea Jones (25:40)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Nate (25:51)
it you end up just spending it. But this is real money. This is like four grand a month. So at some point it's like, how many Hawaii trips can you take? How many cars can you buy? so that's at some point that that goes away. And so what do you do? Well that this is what I'm I'm gonna make a like a proclamation right now. Things are gonna change. You're going to come up with something in the next 10 years
Chelsea Jones (25:55)
Mm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Nate (26:20)
Where you need a boatload of cash. And the only way to do that, or the only way to take to take advantage of this and not feel like all this was wasted was to save some of it. But how can a financial planner like you and me plan for some goal that we have no idea what it's gonna be 10 years from today? Right? Like we just have to talk about something that might happen in 30 years from now, which is important. Some people are like, I want to save every dollar I can.
Chelsea Jones (26:22)
Mm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Nate (26:49)
To retire as early as I can. It's all easy stuff, then we just save the money. But for a lot of people, retiring at 63 is perfectly fine. And so what I have seen families do and recommend it is that they just save for flexibility. Maybe that means an early retirement, maybe that means a more expensive college, or maybe someday you will want to move into a bigger house. And if you want flexibility, that money belongs in a brokerage account.
Chelsea Jones (27:12)
Mm.
Nate (27:17)
Right. So that's that's what you touched on. It's like it could be flexibility for 30 years from now, or it could be flexibility for 10 years from now. And I watched a family that was perfectly on track. They saved so much money that they were starting to get to the point where they're gonna retire at fifty eight, fifty-seven. And then instead they took all the money out. Yes, Chelsea, they paid the taxes.
Chelsea Jones (27:17)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nate (27:41)
So
Chelsea Jones (27:41)
Mm.
Nate (27:42)
they took all the money out, they paid their tax bill, and they moved into a home that was closer to mom, better schools, better community with some land, and they could only do it because they had a brokerage account. They just had money. So you can't always see what's out there, but it's coming. And it's nice to have some extra cash.
Chelsea Jones (27:48)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Another thing we talked about too with you know just the habit of saving because lifestyle creep, they're th these are like relatively new, higher paying jobs. So they already felt like they had some extra money because they were used to making less and then they got the surprise raise. And lifestyle creep is gonna happen. You know, it it happens at different degrees for everybody. But we did talk about, you know, the value of just
Nate (28:16)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Chelsea Jones (28:36)
Being used to saving and not spending that money.
Nate (28:37)
Yes. I I love that.
I love that. Let's make another proclamation. If you get a big fat raise, you should just automatically probably save 20% of it. Right? Because when you get that raise, you're going to start spending it and nobody wants to go back to their financial plan. W we make them, but nobody really wants to go back to their financial plan and say,
Chelsea Jones (28:44)
Ha ha ha.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Nate (29:04)
Hey, remember three years ago when you got a $75,000 raise? And when we wrote this plan, it was based off of your spending habits when you did not get that $75,000 raise. So how much do you spend now? And they're like, yeah, we, you know, we upgraded everything. We we shop at Whole Foods now. And so it's like, they you should save some of it.
Chelsea Jones (29:16)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Nate (29:28)
You know, but not all of it. And if you are diligent enough to go back to your plan, then that's okay. You you don't have to just save an extra twenty percent. You can raise your spending in your plan and then save accordingly. But use you anytime a you know, above and beyond inflation raise happens, you should really consider saving ten, fifteen, twenty percent of that money.
Chelsea Jones (29:42)
Mm-hmm.
Nate (29:54)
Even if you can't see exactly why that is, because your spending will go up. If it doesn't go up, all that's gonna happen is this $75,000 is gonna pile up in a bank account. And then you're calling Chelsea or Kyle or me a year later and saying, this money's been sitting out of the market. It's there's $50,000 in my savings account. It's just been sitting there. What do I do? And we're gonna tell you to invest it then. So get on top of it. You get a big raise.
Chelsea Jones (30:07)
Mm.
Nate (30:22)
Just just see how it feels. Start saving a little bit more.
Chelsea Jones (30:26)
Exactly.
Nate (30:28)
So that would be like save a thousand extra dollars a month. You're taking home four, save a thousand bucks.
Chelsea Jones (30:32)
Mm-hmm.
Nate (30:34)
I think that's it for today.
Chelsea Jones (30:36)
All right. Very good.
Nate (30:38)
I
was had more energy than I thought. Okay, thank you everybody for listening. if you liked this episode, please be sure to subscribe. You can send us questions at podcast at physicianfamily.com. We'll be sure to answer that question even if it doesn't make it on the show. Until next time, remember, you're not just making a living, you're making a life.
Chelsea Jones (30:41)
Mm-hmm.
