Nate Reineke (00:12)
Hello, physician moms and dads. I'm Nate Renneke, Certified Financial Planner and Primary Advisor.
W. Ben Utley (00:18)
And I'm Ben Utley, certified financial planner and the service team leader here at Physician Family. So Nate, you know, it's spring, right? We got past mom, mother's day, and sun is out. Everything's warming up. But you know, the funny thing is this house I moved into, I guess about six months ago, it was built in the 80s. And we found out recently we have carpenter ants.
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know the difference between a carpenter ant and a termite. I just figured that the carpenter ants carry around like a little saw and the termites maybe carry around. I don't know term life insurance. I couldn't tell you. So. Well, yes, I haven't. I have an ant guy. His name is Adam. Adam, Adam Ant. If you're from the eighties, Adam Ant, right? Okay. So, ⁓ like I am, I'm from the eighties, fifties, fifties, mid fifties. Yeah. So, ⁓
Nate Reineke (00:45)
You got it?
You got an ant guy or gal?
Yeah. Yeah.
W. Ben Utley (01:14)
Fortunately, we have this guy from a place called Good Earth and I had him in our last house and I was like, okay, we got ants. Brenda just called the ant guy and she's like, okay. So she got Adam. was over here in two days. I mean, I don't know what they were eating, but we're clean people, right? And they're attacking the shower for some reason. I don't know what's in the shower, right? It's not like we're storing sugar in there. So there's all these ants and it's new to us house. So we haven't kind of been through this before yet, but he comes out, smears some jelly around us,
Nate Reineke (01:30)
Yeah. Yeah.
W. Ben Utley (01:43)
various spots, he shows me it's going to kill him. all these dead ants everywhere. But the moral of the story here is that I had somebody ready to go when there was a problem. I'd already had that relationship that I had carefully tended and nourished and watered over the last five or 10 years. You know, always just kind to them. Didn't really go beyond the call of duty. We didn't go beyond the call of duty as customers, but we're nice. You know, we're nice and respected their schedule and, you know, use them appropriately. So.
Nate Reineke (02:08)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (02:13)
And I guess that kind of gets into one of our first listener questions about ⁓ how to handle an old advisor.
Nate Reineke (02:21)
Yeah, I'm going before I read that question. I have a thought about this. ⁓ When you're, I should say when I was younger, I ran away from those sorts of relationships like the plague in the name of money. You know, I'm like, I don't, I don't need that. I can do this. I can do that. I've found in the last seven, eight years, I am actively looking for those relationships before I really need them.
W. Ben Utley (02:26)
Okay.
huh.
Yeah, I call it collecting good people. Yeah, I collect good people.
Nate Reineke (02:51)
That's not, yes, can't,
yeah, you can't do that for everything, but nothing's worse than something happening in your life and you just having nobody to call. You're like, now I'm a shopper and I'm desperate. You don't wanna call people when you're desperate. So interesting thought, but.
W. Ben Utley (03:06)
Yeah. Yeah. You need a plumber,
an auto mechanic, maybe an electrician, maybe definitely a, pest termite dry rot kind of guy, you know, ⁓ have a relationship with a fix it person unless you're real handy. So, yeah, I think, ⁓ and, and that goes without saying like a shrink, a doctor, you know, all this, all those people, some kind of relationship with an attorney, you know, I think that you need good people on your team and, ⁓
Nate Reineke (03:27)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (03:34)
If you treat them like a commodity, they're not going be happy to hear from you. But if you treat them like friends and you take care of them, then they'll be there for you.
Nate Reineke (03:41)
Yeah, my wife ⁓ stays in touch with some of our ⁓ kind of nannies or childcare people and they come, you know, just because they left us doesn't mean that they didn't enjoy their time with us. They just went off to college or did something and we got it. We got an army of people ready for date nights. It's great. Yeah. Okay. So this does bring us to our first question. This is from an ENT in Florida. It says, I have accounts with a previous advisor.
W. Ben Utley (04:01)
Awesome.
Nate Reineke (04:11)
Do I have to get our last advisor involved or can I just move the money?
W. Ben Utley (04:18)
Get the old advisor involved or just move the money. I guess there's like what you can do and how you could handle it is what I would say. Yeah. Am I taking this one or are you taking this one?
Nate Reineke (04:31)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Well, you're taking this one, the way I thought about it, have you ever, you're probably too old to ever have been broken up with by text, right? But I'm sure you, know, eighties, you were still ghosted by phone.
W. Ben Utley (04:45)
Ghosted. Yeah, yeah.
I was, I was married before iPhones came out. Yeah. And texting and all that good stuff. Yeah. So, ⁓ you know, I, I, so there's two things, one, three things, actually, I've been on the get inside of this where someone left us, right? That happens. ⁓ I've been on the, on the other side where we're receiving a client that's firing an advisor, but I've also been on the parenting side of this. So I have two daughters and when they were starting to date,
Nate Reineke (04:56)
Yeah, right.
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (05:22)
They were texting, of course. And once like, need to break up. I'm going to text him. Blah, blah, like, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Have you, is this a texting relationship? Have you been texting this boy all along? Now I've seen him. We've gone out. I'm like, look, you've seen this guy face to face. You've kissed him. You need to go see that guy and let him know that you're, you're out like face to face, break it off. Cause you know, when you have someone that you care about, this is how you treat human beings, whether you're going to continue with them.
Nate Reineke (05:44)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (05:52)
or not, you should be upfront with them about the relationship. And if it's a safe place, which a business relationship is, it's okay to let them know what's not working for you, especially if during that relationship you said, this is not working for you. Like in my daughter's case, it might be like, it's not okay for you to call me after nine o'clock at night because I've got homework to do, right? It's not okay for you to not show up for a date.
It's not okay for you to blow me off for your buddies. Whatever it is, whatever your boundary is, I think people see advisors sometimes like a commodity where, oh, I can just turn them on and turn them off. You can with some advisors, but other advisors who are looking for a relationship, the kind of people are gonna have your back when the ants come, right? And those people will treat you like a valued relationship if you treat them like a valued relationship. And so I think if you're breaking up with someone like that,
Nate Reineke (06:21)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (06:49)
The best way to go is just to sit them down, maybe just a telephone, but give them an opportunity and say, you know, during the course of our relationship, I saw you do this, this, and this. I felt this way about it and this way about it. Specifically, I don't like this and this. And that's why I'm leaving you. Because if you just ghost this advisor, you stop taking telephone calls, you use an ACATS transfer to pull the money out of their care, which you can do without ever talking to them, then they're always going to wonder what they did wrong. Right? They're going to be like,
Nate Reineke (07:05)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (07:20)
Did I charge too much? Did I fail to return phone calls? ⁓ Did they go with a brother-in-law, right? Or ⁓ what's going on? And then they're also gonna wonder, know, ⁓ what will happen next time a relationship comes? I think in the name of humanity, you want to let people know what happened so that they have an opportunity to improve.
Nate Reineke (07:42)
Yeah, yeah, it's, ⁓ you know, the dating thing. It's an easy way out is it's not you, it's me sort of thing. But if you say it's not you, it's me. And this guy sold you whole life insurance or charged you 1 % on your assets and it's just way too much money or never called you back. They just aren't involved like you expected them to be. You know, it may be your philosophy on life is that not your problem anymore.
W. Ben Utley (07:59)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Nate Reineke (08:10)
but they probably have a hundred other clients who are feeling the same thing. Maybe it only takes a few of these calls to...
W. Ben Utley (08:14)
No, the
exception to this rule I would say is if you have an abusive relationship, this could be for any abusive relationship, those kinds of relationships, you want to shut the door. It's not ghosting them. It's literally putting up a wall. ⁓ if you have an abusive advisor or somebody who's taken advantage of your trust, then you can use an ACAT transfer to move all of your money in kind without paying income taxes, right? Without triggering a taxable event without paying capital gains. can do that.
Nate Reineke (08:27)
Yeah.
W. Ben Utley (08:43)
If you have, if they pushed whole life, but they also have your disability insurance, you can request another agent to be the agent of record on that disability insurance. In fact, sometimes when clients come to us and they've been with an abusive agent, we have a place where we can park them, where they're not going to get pastured, but they need service on their policy. Then they have an agent that's not us. It's just an Alliance partner that we have. ⁓ you know, if you're, if you're kind of trapped in an abusive advisor relationship, there is a place for you.
Nate Reineke (09:06)
Yeah.
W. Ben Utley (09:11)
And there is an appropriate way to get out of this without losing money, without having your accounts destroyed. know, it's honestly, it's a lot more straightforward. And like they said in Moneyball, you know, this just happens all the time. People get sent down. Yeah.
Nate Reineke (09:24)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
All right. Next question was from an internal medicine doc in Texas. He said, I have been playing around with covered call and put options in my free time. Yeah.
W. Ben Utley (09:41)
I'm covering my eyes.
For those of you that are watching on YouTube, I'm still covering my eyes.
Nate Reineke (09:47)
Yeah, as I as I get more into involved with my finances, what do you think about that? OK, so I got this question and full disclosure, ⁓ I had to pull this out of this person. think they know our take on alternative styles of investing. OK, so I'm not even going to get into what covered calls and puts are right. It's but let me just.
W. Ben Utley (10:07)
Mm-hmm.
Nate Reineke (10:16)
⁓ say some things I've noticed about when people kind of go off the beaten path with investing. ⁓ One is that I do understand the urge to do something unique. ⁓ It's exciting. ⁓ It is exciting to try something new, think that maybe you found something nobody else is doing.
W. Ben Utley (10:22)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nate Reineke (10:43)
And there is enough content out there on the internet. This person told me that they get this information off of YouTube. ⁓ Which, hey, we're on YouTube. Maybe there's some good guys out there. it's ⁓ just, I understand the draw. Okay? But what I've noticed with physicians is sort of twofold. One, normally when you're doing these sorts of things, it's not with a meaningful amount of money.
W. Ben Utley (10:51)
⁓ huh.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nate Reineke (11:13)
So in this particular case, I think they're doing a thousand bucks or a thousand bucks a month maybe, which is meaningful. But ⁓ let's say you did really well with your thousand dollars. It does not change your life positively or negatively. Actually, it could change it negatively. let's, you double your money fast. The thousand dollars you made doesn't change your life ⁓ in a positive way.
W. Ben Utley (11:24)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Nate Reineke (11:42)
The negative side of this is if you double your money fast, you're probably going to be tended to use more money. And this
is where people lose their shorts, as the great Bennett would say.
W. Ben Utley (11:52)
Yeah,
yeah, they lose their shorts.
Nate Reineke (11:56)
So the question that I've always had is why? Why does this happen? Why do physicians get interested in this? And not even just physicians, but lots of people. Why do they get interested?
W. Ben Utley (12:06)
intelligent,
highly paid professionals who might not should know better.
Nate Reineke (12:10)
Yes.
Yeah, and I think that this is a psychology thing. comes down to complexity bias. High IQ people, they tend to over complicate things, even if simple investing has great evidence behind it that it will do its job for you. And so I think I did maybe talk poorly a little bit about calls and puts.
W. Ben Utley (12:18)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nate Reineke (12:39)
He was, he promptly corrected me that they were covered calls and covered puts. ⁓ but the, the problem is.
W. Ben Utley (12:42)
Mm-hmm.
Nate Reineke (12:48)
The real issue here is that I don't think this is where your focus should be on and you don't have a reason to be doing it.
W. Ben Utley (12:58)
Yeah, I'm wondering like while that person's sitting there trading, what are their kids doing? What's their spouse doing? know, like how's their health? How's their blood chemistry? How's their blood pressure? You know, I guess the thing that I don't like about it is it is basically playing with the money. And I've seen that when people play with their money, particularly
Nate Reineke (13:05)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (13:26)
in public markets, which are terribly efficient. It's not good for them. And you know, it's like, I would be surprised if this guy stays with us and he probably shouldn't stay with us. And here's why. Our focus here is to help people retire without regrets, not to retire rich. In fact, I'm not so concerned about our clients retiring rich. I'm more concerned about them not dying poor. Right. That's the mission here is to make sure that
Nate Reineke (13:52)
Yes.
W. Ben Utley (13:55)
They are going to be okay with their finances. Not that they're going to have more money than anybody else. Not that they're going to learn all kinds of stuff about what we do. If we even did those things, it is, it is that they have a good ride, that they have a good life that they can look back on and be proud of it. That they get an invite to their kids Thanksgiving dinner and they have a strong relationship with their family and their friends. These are the things that actually make life worth living. You know,
Doubling down on your money because you're using options. And I understand that covered puts and calls or covered calls. Anyway, that's an income strategy. get that. ⁓ I mean, geez, if you need income, ⁓ get some bonds, go get yourself a real, a rental property or something like that. You know, do something that is, is not dependent on the whims of the public markets. But that's, that's kind of my take on it is it's not that it's.
Nate Reineke (14:31)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (14:52)
It's bad or ineffective. It's just a waste of time.
Nate Reineke (14:55)
Yeah, yeah, I think the it can be frustrating to hear us keep beating this drum of simplicity. But the key is that position, the real difference that physicians have against anybody else that you're watching on YouTube or any other, you know, middle class person is you do have a fantastic income. You get to have simplicity. Someone who doesn't have to knick, nickels to rub together, maybe they do need to go out and get a big, giant leveraged up.
W. Ben Utley (15:11)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm
Nate Reineke (15:24)
portfolio of real estate. Maybe they have to take that amount of risk, but you don't.
W. Ben Utley (15:28)
Could be. Could be.
I don't know. mean, I guess people could be frustrated by us beating the drum simplicity, but by God, I love beating that drum and I live a really good lifestyle and I've hewed to simplicity over the years and it's worked out really well for me and I want other people to have that. You know, that's why I won't put it down. So if people are frustrated by that, they can tune us out. You know, that's everyone's option to unsubscribe or leave us. But we're going to stay.
on the simplicity path.
Nate Reineke (15:59)
It's the past that works. Okay, so listener Dr. Morgan, we promised we would answer your question. So here's the question that we answered by email that we're going to get into a little bit here. I currently contribute $1,000 to my current employer's healthcare FSA, which runs July through June. ⁓ I will...
W. Ben Utley (16:07)
Hello, Dr. Morgan. Yay, Dr. Morgan.
Nate Reineke (16:28)
soon be changing jobs and begin a new job this July and will plan to go with their high deductible health plan option so I can begin to max out the allowed HSA family contribution. I know I cannot contribute to both an FSA and HSA in the same calendar year, but is there an exception when there is a job change? If there's no exception, can I still open the HSA and allow my employer to put in their contribution for 2025?
Well, I don't make a contribution until 2026. Okay. This is a nuanced question. And so I'm actually going to go straight to the detail, like technical details here. Okay.
W. Ben Utley (17:12)
We're getting down on the deep in the weeds and listen,
if you're not super clear on FSA versus HSA, I will bring you up for air after Nate is done with the technical stuff.
Nate Reineke (17:22)
Yeah.
So this is the ⁓ most straightforward I could get. Correct, Morgan. You cannot contribute to an HSA while contributing to an FSA. So that's number one. That's right. ⁓ And that includes employer contributions. So you can't move to a new employer, have the employer making contributions while you have this active FSA.
W. Ben Utley (17:35)
or while you have an active flexible spending account. Yes. Yeah.
Now, so the FSA has got
to be dead as a doornail before anybody puts any money in your health savings account. You can open an empty account and keep it around, but you can't contribute to it until that FSA is absolutely stomped dead.
Nate Reineke (17:53)
Yes.
Yes.
Yes, so that's the first step. You have to terminate the FSA. So if I were her to make this really clean, I'd try to spend that money and clean it out and terminate it. Okay. And then when you switch jobs, if it's completely terminated, which sometimes there's a grace period, there's a carry over, it has to be gone. The FSA has to be gone. So let's say we successfully terminate the FSA, you get your new HSA.
you can start making contributions to the new HSA with some rules. So you can make the contribution when you're under the high deductible health plan. And the main rule is that, so this is halfway through 2025, right? You can make your contribution 2025. That HSA, and you must be eligible for that HSA through 2026. There's a special rule.
W. Ben Utley (18:45)
Yep.
Okay, so let me get this straight.
So Morgan can contribute, as soon as her FSA is stopped dead, she can contribute to a health savings account and make the full contribution before the end of this year. But in order to avoid penalties, she's got to keep that health savings account active all the way through the end of next year. Is that right? Okay, cool. All right, so let me back up the truck for just, can I go into FSA versus HSA? Okay, so for those of you that are new to the FSA versus HSA.
Nate Reineke (19:14)
Yes, Yep.
W. Ben Utley (19:25)
A flexible spending account is a program that your employer establishes. And there's two kinds. One is you can pay for healthcare. The other one you can pay for dependent care. Okay. We're talking about FSA for healthcare in this particular scenario. Don't worry. You can have a health savings account and a dependent care flexible spending account at the same time. So anyway, ⁓ flexible spending account is ⁓ you can defer money into it.
you don't pay any taxes on it, and then when you use it for qualified medical expenses, you can take money out of it without paying any taxes. So it's a complete workaround to taxes. However, if you put money into the flexible spending account and you don't use it, you lose it. Okay? So that puts the F in FSA. You don't want to fail to use all your flexible spending account. Health savings account, on the other hand, you can have through your employer, you can have it on your own. You must have.
You must have a high deductible health plan in order to have an HSA. You don't have to have an HSA with an HDHP, but you have to have a high deductible health plan first. And you put the money in there and we encourage you not to spend it because then it can grow. Right? So H and HSA is for hold. You hold onto the money. H for issue. HSA is happy because you'll be happy to have it when you get into retirement and you spend it on qualified medical expenses. So F is for fail.
If fail to spend your FSA, it's bad. HSA is for happy. If you don't spend your HSA, you'll be happy to have it later on. So that's the ultra basic version of this.
Nate Reineke (20:56)
Nice.
And you touched on this, is like low hanging fruit that I think a lot of people miss. Dependent care FSAs are awesome. I mean, if you have childcare expenses and this isn't paying your, you know, under the table childcare, like legitimate daycare expenses, it's just free tax money. Filter it through that account, pay your daycare. It's $5,000 off the top of your taxes.
W. Ben Utley (21:09)
They really are. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. And you know, you can pay a nanny with this, but you have to report their earnings. You basically have to treat it like payroll because there has to be a tax ID that you identify with the flexible spending account for dependent care. So can I tell you a quick and funny story? So I was, ⁓ I was in a call where we're reviewing a client's current account. So this is the planning process. It was early on and we were literally just asking them to log into their accounts, share their screen and shows what they got. And so we're digging around inside a fidelity account and we found.
Nate Reineke (21:30)
Yes.
W. Ben Utley (21:57)
a flexible spending account that the client forgot that they had. We were nearing the end of the period when it would expire and there was like $5,000 in there. Maybe it was four. can't remember exactly. It was not a small amount of money. And they're like, ⁓ I didn't know that I had that. And I said, yeah, and if you don't use it, it's all going to go away. And they had ⁓ had some kind of procedure during that year that they paid for out of pocket. can't remember what it was, but I said, all you have to do is submit for reimbursement and document it you'll get that money back out and you won't lose it.
Nate Reineke (22:07)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (22:27)
And so we just literally found a big old chunk of money just by looking in these accounts that they hadn't bothered to look at in a while. I don't know if they lost it last year in prior years or not, but the money was sitting right there staring at us. Yeah.
Nate Reineke (22:29)
No.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That stuff's easy to lose because it's all attached to your benefits and usually it's some obscure website.
W. Ben Utley (22:42)
Yeah, you should do an annual
investment review where you look deeply into all of your accounts and pay attention to the Johnson titles. And by the way, Kyle is great at that.
Nate Reineke (22:52)
All right, last question is from a double doctor family in Florida. What accounts should we save into for retirement? And in the case of an emergency, how can we access that money? And what are the penalties?
W. Ben Utley (22:58)
Mm.
Interesting. So would say first, you know, ⁓ have an emergency fund. That's not a retirement account. That's that's the first best option, right? Set some money aside in a high yield savings account or CD or something like that. Yeah. That's first option.
Nate Reineke (23:10)
That's a good question.
Yeah.
Yeah, the way I kind of read this was what account should I use? then it's doubling as an emergency fund. It's a little interesting the way it was written. the way I'm taking this is basically there are usually four options for accounts for physicians. Depending, if you have some extra options at work, maybe this doesn't directly apply. But HSAs, we just talked about those.
W. Ben Utley (23:39)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Nate Reineke (23:57)
You
do your backdoor Roths, you have a Roth IRA, and you have a 401k at work and a taxable account. Those are kind of the ways to save for retirement. So the order of operations for, guess, what's easiest to get to if you had an emergency sort of goes like this. HSA, we're just agreeing amongst ourselves you're not going to spend that money. You can always spend the money if you really wanted to. ⁓
W. Ben Utley (24:00)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
.
Yeah.
Nate Reineke (24:26)
on health expenses. So that is.
W. Ben Utley (24:27)
So if your emergency
is medical, health savings account is a good way to go. And if your kids have a medical emergency, you can use your money for them as well. So that's a good place to get it.
Nate Reineke (24:31)
Yeah, no penalties.
That's right. That's right. So
yes. And so you just avoid it if you can. But if you absolutely had, you can use that. ⁓ Then we have your Roth IRA. So. ⁓
With Roths, you can always withdraw contributions out of your Roth IRA and take those out penalty and tax free.
W. Ben Utley (24:58)
Yeah, we call that the basis is the money that is that is in there from conversions that you already paid taxes on as well as contributions or that kind of thing basis money.
Nate Reineke (25:08)
Yeah, and those
contributions come out first. Right? So with other accounts, a lot of times, contribution, like let's say with the 529, 529 college savings, it'll be mixed up. You can't just take out contributions first penalty free. You got to take out a little bit of gain, a little bit of contributions. It's not the case with Roths. So, you know, we don't talk about this a lot, because we don't want you taking money out of your Roth Roths, but...
W. Ben Utley (25:36)
Yeah, but you know what? Back
when I was starting this business, I did this. I had a tiny Roth and I used it. I regarded it as my emergency fund. didn't use it as my emergency fund, but it functioned as emergency fund for a while when I didn't have one. Yeah.
Nate Reineke (25:52)
Yeah,
when you're just getting started, I would look at this as a way to make it so you actually start saving rather than being scared of emergencies. But you do want an emergency fund. Because when an emergency happens, and you're 10 years into practice, and you're like, well, I have my Roth. Well, that's not great. You can't put it back in. You want money in your Roth. But it's a good starting point. After that would be a taxable account. That money, again,
W. Ben Utley (26:02)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm hmm.
Nate Reineke (26:20)
There's no penalties to take money out of a taxable account. You can just pull it. You got to pay taxes. So you try to avoid that with emergency fund as well. That's right.
W. Ben Utley (26:28)
Well, but only if there's gains, right? If
there's losses, you can harvest those capital losses and carry them forward and use them against gains later on. And this year there's been some losses. Anybody who started contributing in January probably has some losses on their hands now. And those tax lots would be qualified for a tax free withdrawal. In fact, they'd be a tax benefit on it. So, yeah.
Nate Reineke (26:44)
Mm-hmm.
Right. By the way,
I want to make sure I was really clear. Just the basis on Roths. If you pull out the growth inside of a Roth, you will pay taxes and penalties unless you're 59 and a half. Yeah, that's ugly.
W. Ben Utley (27:03)
And that's ugly. And you'll have a hard time telling unless you've been filing your form
8606, which is where you document the basis in your IRAs. So if you don't know what a form 8606 is, ⁓ you need to either get right with your TurboTax or talk to your CPA to make sure you have one.
Nate Reineke (27:12)
Okay. Yeah.
Yeah. Let's see what's left. Your accounts at work. So your 401k, right? can take a 401k loan. It's kind of last on the list here. Getting into, yeah, or hard with the ship withdrawal. And a lot of those depend on the size of the emergency. Sometimes, you know, the hard ship withdrawal rules with some of these accounts are kind of low, but you're just getting started. So I imagine...
W. Ben Utley (27:27)
Yeah.
or hardship withdrawal.
Nate Reineke (27:50)
your expenses are probably kind of low.
W. Ben Utley (27:52)
There's actually one more that I thought about. don't think about cash value life insurance very much, but I know that some of our listeners have been sucked into buying a cash value or VUL. It's nasty, but maybe they're stuck with it. ⁓ They could borrow against that or they could ⁓ basically borrow against it and not repay it, but that's a place you could get cash as well.
Nate Reineke (28:04)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. So
the message here isn't to use those emergency funds. The message is get started. There are a lot of back doors with a lot of these accounts. Same goes with 529. Whenever someone's nervous to stuff a bunch of money into 529, ⁓ you know, once we've talked it through, it sure seems like there's a lot of ways to get the money out, you know, if you really needed it. So there's ways to get your hands on a bunch of money. So start saving.
W. Ben Utley (28:24)
Yep.
Awesome. All right. Okay. Well, so I'll just wrap us up. So we're the guys at Physician Family Financial Advisors. If you're interested in finding out if we're a match, just go to physicianfamily.com, click get started. It'll take a little quiz to see if there maybe there's a match and then we can chat. If that's not for you, feel free to send us the questions. Morgan, thanks for your question. You can email us at podcast at physicianfamily.com. And until next time, remember.
Nate Reineke (28:45)
That's it for today.
W. Ben Utley (29:11)
You're not just making a living, you're making a life.
