Nate Reineke (00:12)
physician moms and dads. I'm Nate Renneke, Certified Financial Planner and Primary Advisor.
W. Ben Utley (00:18)
And I'm Ben Utley, also a certified financial planner and the service team leader here at Physician Family. So Nate, today is more listener questions. Before we get going though, I want to remind everyone that Memorial Day is coming up. What you have Memorial Day plans and intentions? What's your goal, Nate, for Memorial Day?
Nate Reineke (00:38)
So we have this monkey on all of our backs at home, which is that my seven-year-old Mateo has never caught a fish and he really wants to catch a fish. I don't know why, he got, because I'm not really a fisherman, but we're hoping to go somewhere to catch a fish.
W. Ben Utley (00:50)
Yeah.
The fact that dad is not a fisherman would only fuel the hope of catching a fish.
Nate Reineke (00:59)
Yeah,
we've tried lots of times when camping and stuff, but it's never really the right place to go. And you know, he still has his little, little kid fishing pole. So I can't really cast it very far, you know, and I'm not a boat guy, so I don't know what to do for him, but we're going to try to go to the stocked lake. Yeah.
W. Ben Utley (01:12)
Yeah. Nice.
Yeah, go to a place where they feed
them corn and put some corn on a hook and you just, won't be able to quit. I mean, it's just, it'll be fish after fish. And then you'll have a new problem, which will be your next year's goal to never have to touch a fish again.
Nate Reineke (01:33)
So that's funny. ⁓ Like I said, we're three years into trying to catch a fish. And I told him like six months ago, he had this epiphany that he would have to touch the fish. I said, yeah, you're gonna have to touch the fish. And he's like, I'm not doing that. I go, well, then you're not catching the fish. And he's like, you know, we went back and forth about it. He's like, will you help me? I'm like, yeah, I'll help you. But we're not gonna eat it. So we're putting it back. ⁓ And, ⁓ cause he won't eat the fish.
W. Ben Utley (01:50)
Yeah, right.
Nice.
Nate Reineke (02:03)
And so yeah, we'll see what he does.
W. Ben Utley (02:06)
Okay, here comes my hammy segue, you ready? I hope you catch a fish. We've caught the attention of a couple physicians who listened to our show and I'd like to give a shout out and thank you. Ali, thank you so much for your question. And Morgan, thank you for your questions. Well, I hope you got my email. We're going to tackle your question next week. So with no further ado, Nate, what's number one question?
Nate Reineke (02:08)
Okay.
Just,
Okay, first question is from a retired position in Alaska. We have a relatively large account with about $2 million in cash. We are worried about the current economic and political situation. Should we put that cash in the market right now?
W. Ben Utley (02:45)
I
Wow. Okay. So here's the theory and then I'll tell you their practice. The theory is yes, because when we look at studies about investing lump sums versus other options, the lump sum wins. And the reason that's the case is because historically markets have gone up, right? Of they've gone down in between. So that's the theory. But in practice, you've got your $2 million.
Nate Reineke (02:55)
Yeah.
W. Ben Utley (03:16)
It's your nest egg, right? It's your future retirement. It's kind of everything. And if you put that in there and then you see like a 20 % downturn, you're to be like the market just ate $400,000 of my dollars. And the next thing you're going to do is you're going to start drawing on that $400,000 on that $1.6 million. So you're going to suffer a sequence of returns risk immediately if you're actually retiring. So what do you do? What would you do?
Nate Reineke (03:28)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think in this situation, given that they are nervous and retired, ⁓ you should probably just drip it in, dollar cost average it over time, is set, set it, well, maybe it's over the next 10 months or 12 months. You split it up and invest over time. I have one more piece. Okay, go ahead.
W. Ben Utley (04:00)
I got one for you. I got one for you.
So the, ⁓ the November midterm elections are coming and that should change some of the political landscape or it might, it might cement the political landscape. I don't know, but that's about, ⁓ what's that like 16, 18 months from now. You could just call that like 20 months and divide that $2 million into hunks of a thousand dollars and automate it and close your eyes, cross your fingers and just know that at some point in the future, you know, probably we'll be worth more than it is today.
Nate Reineke (04:17)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (04:30)
And not all of your contributions are going to catch the low point, right? And not all them are going to catch the high point. So it's a way to kind of minimize regrets. And we are about retiring without regrets. So there you go.
Nate Reineke (04:35)
Yeah.
Yeah, that's right. I want to add one more piece to this, is I saw, you know, we're looking at portfolios lately with people just because of the market. ⁓ International stocks have done all right. So, you know, if you're well diversified, you don't just need to watch the news in this one country. I know we've got a big country. know, we control a lot of the narrative here. But, you know, if you're fully diversified and imagine you have a really good chunk of bonds,
W. Ben Utley (04:50)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Nate Reineke (05:12)
Should be okay. So no worries about actually investing. But if you feel, if when Ben said you would lose $400,000, if that gave you a really terrible feeling, you should just do this ⁓ over time.
W. Ben Utley (05:25)
Mm-hmm.
Over time, yeah. Because remember, you should have bonds. If you're approaching retirement, you should have bonds, you know, 30, 40, 50 % of your portfolio, depending on how much you'd like to spend. And, you know, if you're investing in a diversified fashion, which is say you have US stocks and international stocks, in your international stocks, you have like 100 plus other countries represented in there, and they all have their own geopolitical situation. So
Nate Reineke (05:54)
Hmm.
W. Ben Utley (05:57)
I guess another approach would be to maybe ⁓ tilt more towards international if you're nervous about that. But yeah, that's a personal preference. ⁓ US investors typically have a home side bias. So more than half the portfolios are typically invested in the US. yeah. Spread it out. Yeah. know, Teeboon Pickens, the famous oil man down in Texas said, money's like manure. The more you spread it out, the less it stinks.
Nate Reineke (06:07)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Yeah. Okay. Next question is from a double doctor family in South Carolina. Ben, this is a long question. I did purposely did not kind of cut out the fat because I just, it seemed relevant that this can get complicated over something that may not be a big deal. So yes.
W. Ben Utley (06:48)
This is direct from the listener's mouth. I love it.
Fire away.
Nate Reineke (06:52)
So
it just realized that we made a mistake when we performed our backdoor Roth IRA this year. We put money into our taxable account and then did the Roth conversion. We just realized, however, it was still in a money market settlement fund within our Roth account. It currently grew $76 from the $7,000 we put in January.
I figure you have other clients who have made the same mistake previously and we're hoping for some guidance. We're just wanting to move it to an investment account but don't want to make any mistakes that would muddy up our taxes for next year. We can convert all of it if we leave $76,000 in our money market settlement fund to avoid messing up our taxes for next year. That was a question. Oh, $76. Sorry, $76.
W. Ben Utley (07:41)
Hold on, hold on, you just said $76,000. I think we meant $76. Yeah, okay.
I'm not sure if that was you or them, but anyway, I know it's only $76.
Nate Reineke (07:49)
Yeah.
How would we go about documenting this on our tax return for next year? I've been reading up on this and it seems like they're recommending converting all of it. And we will need to pay taxes on the growth and the interim that has been made, but we don't want to create too much of a mess for tax time next season. So before we answer this Ben, let me tell you what's going on because there were some mistakes in the question itself.
They said things like, put money in our taxable account. put money in, and taxable account means something to us. That's like a regular brokerage account. But that's right. Not an IRA. But here's what happened. They put $7,000 in their IRA, their traditional IRA. And then, and now they want to convert it to their Roth. But there's a $76 in there and it goes beyond the contribution limit. And their question is, is this a problem?
W. Ben Utley (08:19)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
That's like a joint account trust account kind of thing, not an IRA. Yeah.
Traditional IRA,
So hold on, let me put it this way. So they contributed $7,000 for traditional IRA. It grew to $7,076 and now they're wondering like, what do I do? And how do I document it? I don't want to screw up my taxes. And how did I mess up my back door Roth? Okay. You want to tackle this one? You want me to, your choice. Okay.
Nate Reineke (08:59)
Yes.
That's right.
Yeah. So yeah, I'll talk about this one. There
really isn't a problem here. There's no major problem here. ⁓ You just convert the whole thing and you pay taxes on $76. This happens a lot. the real, I, the reason I think people get confused by it is it does complicate the tax form.
W. Ben Utley (09:18)
Yep. Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Nate Reineke (09:33)
But just because it's complicated doesn't mean you did anything wrong. So when you convert this, so go convert it. That's the answer. Just go convert this. And then you have to make sure that you're telling the IRS that 7,000 of these dollars were non-deductible contributions. And 76 of these dollars ⁓ that you're converting essentially is growth.
W. Ben Utley (09:36)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. So I want to, I want to break this down just a little bit and then dip my toe in the technical weeds. All right. So, ⁓ you know, you hear Roth conversion backdoor Roth Roth conversion backdoor. You hear that all the time. And it is as if Roth conversion is this. That's one little thing, but here's what it looks like. You open a traditional IRA. You write a check. You contribute $7,000 to that traditional IRA. Then you either click a button or you fill out a form and that form says
Nate Reineke (10:04)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (10:27)
take the money out of my traditional IRA and move it to my Roth IRA. And when you take money out of a traditional IRA, that is a taxable event, which is a taxes might owe on it. You might have to pay taxes, it's taxable, it's taxable, can be taxed. Okay. So the money comes out of the traditional IRA and it moves into the Roth IRA. And in the process, wherever you're doing this, whether it's Vanguard, Fidelity, Betterment, whoever it is,
They're going to generate a form 1099R, ours for retirement. They're going to generate a form 1099R in that year. And they're going to report this transaction to the IRS, whether it's $7,6900 or $7,076. They're going to report the gross proceeds that went into the Roth IRA. Okay. So they're going to report that to you and you're going to take those, that form 1099R and you're going to, through your tax software or your CPA,
you're going let them know that it was a non-deductible contribution. In the tax software, this is all reported on form 8606. ⁓
Your form 8606 tracks your basis. That's where you tell your software or you tell the IRS or you tell your tax return that we contributed the $7,000 and it is non-deductible and it will calculate and figure out that that $76 was an increase in value. And I'm choosing those words carefully, increase in value, because it is not a gain. It is an increase in the value of the traditional IRA. And when it gets converted, that extra 76 bucks
that is returned gets calculated as ordinary income. So you're going to have an additional 76 bucks in ordinary income flowing to the bottom line of your tax return. And it's not subject to 10 % penalty, right? Because you're capable of doing this without the penalty because ultimately the money is going to stay in IRA. So no penalty for taking it out, right? ⁓ By the same token, this listener could have contributed $7,000 into a marketable security and seen a loss of, I don't know,
Nate Reineke (12:19)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (12:35)
10 % or something like that and they'd be converting $6,300. Well, good news is it's not going to mess anything up. The bad news is you don't get to, you don't get to take that loss. It's not treated as a capital loss. It is just a, you just have a lower ⁓ Roth conversion. You kind of waste about 700 bucks of your conversion. So the very best way to do a backdoor Roth setup slash conversion is to contribute the money.
Nate Reineke (12:46)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (13:03)
and immediately do the conversion. That is perfect, but it's not always ideal. Because I've seen clients that want to do this, but they forget to fund it every year. They just get busy, time slides by, life happens, kids scream, beepers go off. I guess it's 2025 now, so we don't have beepers. But yeah, things happen, and they forget to do it. So the next best thing is to set up your traditional IRA.
Nate Reineke (13:15)
Mm-hmm.
Hmph.
W. Ben Utley (13:32)
so that it receives these contributions throughout the course of the year. And then whenever you get around to it, you convert it, right? You can convert it ⁓ near the end of the year. There is no Roth conversion deadline. It doesn't have to be done at any particular time. You can contribute to this thing for 10 years and then convert, right? You might have some ⁓ extra income tax to pay because of the growth of it, but it's still growth. Now it's not the end of the world. So there is perfect and then there's optimal.
Nate Reineke (13:46)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (13:59)
And for a lot of physicians, the optimal way is to contribute on a monthly basis automatically to their traditional IRA and then convert that thing once a year, ideally in December, just so it stays in the same tax year. But there's no, there's no code around this. It is a tax strategy. It's not a tax law. Right? So the devil's in the details, but honestly, this is not nearly as hard as people make it out to be. And I will just say, I think Kyle did, I think he said 211 of these.
for our clients back in December of this year, like this is something we do. If you're interested in this, you just don't want to mess with all the details, we do this. It's like on YouTube, I'm holding up my finger, I'm looking at the tip of my pinky finger and I'm like, it takes about that much of our power to do this. And you get all the rest of the power that's in this full fist, right? So, you know, that's like one tiny little thing that we do that makes life easy for you. It's probably not worth hiring a financial advisor for, but you know, if you're not,
Nate Reineke (14:34)
Yeah.
Yeah.
W. Ben Utley (14:58)
If you're not doing this yourself, you know, you should be doing it. And this is the cockroach in the kitchen. It's a sign that if you're not, if you don't have a backdoor broth and you're not maintaining a backdoor broth and taking care of it, you got other problems. There's probably other stuff going on that needs attention too.
Nate Reineke (15:13)
Yeah, the thing that gets me about that is I know a lot of families that have the intention of doing it and sort of getting around to it. ⁓ That hurts my soul as a financial planner because you only get $7,000 a year and once that year is up, you never get it back. You can never come back and be like, yeah, I remember three years ago and we forgot to do that. Let's do it now. It's like, get it set up now. And if you can't do it on your own, then.
W. Ben Utley (15:33)
Yeah. Yeah.
Nate Reineke (15:43)
We're here to help, you you just don't get a lot of these opportunities. Most physicians have to save a lot more than whatever tax advantages they get with these accounts. okay. Next question. Specialist on the East Coast that I have a buy-in opportunity at my practice. It's going to cost $975,000. Should I get a loan or take it out of my taxable account?
W. Ben Utley (15:54)
Correct.
Okay, so defining terms here, taxable means a joint account and that could be like, it could be a checking account, it could be a brokerage account, it be a mutual fund account. In this case, we're talking about an investment account, okay? A joint account, your own individual account, a joint trust or an individual trust. So I'm breaking down what the word taxable account means in this context. Okay.
Nate Reineke (16:15)
I wish this was a... Yeah, yeah.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. And I wish there was like a yes or no answer to this. It's ⁓ going to be unique to whoever's asking it, right? I mean, sometimes, you know, it makes sense just to make this really clean, take it out of your taxable account and pay by end of the practice. And what usually happens in those situations is your income goes up a lot more because you don't have a debt to pay off.
W. Ben Utley (16:50)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nate Reineke (17:09)
⁓ and you can replace it. ⁓ Other times that feels to somebody like that might be risky or something to take money out and be out of the market. ⁓ I view it as just a cleanliness thing, like which one do you value more? But you could also, yeah.
W. Ben Utley (17:26)
Financial hygiene is what I like to call
it. Good financial hygiene to make things clean as you do them.
Nate Reineke (17:32)
⁓
I've seen a ton of these situations where you don't have the option to pay in cash. Part of the buy-in, fact the last one I dealt with, I said, you got a hundred grand, why don't you go pay that off? go, they won't let me. Because part of the benefits to the practice is to earn interest. It's all baked into the price that we'll give you a decent price, but we're going to earn.
W. Ben Utley (17:40)
Mm.
⁓
Yeah.
Nate Reineke (18:00)
7 % interest off of you for five years.
W. Ben Utley (18:02)
Well, and by the same
token, when the practice or the people that are selling them the shares, when they do this on an installment note, which is to say they allow the buyer to make payments, that also spreads the gains over time because a portion of each of those monthly or quarterly payments is counted as a return of principal or capital, and then some of it is capital gain and some of it is interest. So all that's factored in. in particular in this case for the listener, the 975,
Nate Reineke (18:10)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (18:32)
When they chunk this 975 down, whoever sold them these shares is going to have a capital gain to pay for the sale of those partnership shares. If that is spread out over time, like if it's seller financing, then those capital gains are going to be spread over time. So I think you have to think about what the seller wants, but you also have to look at your circumstances. Let's say it sounds like this listener has $975,000 kicking around in their taxable account.
Is that 975 that went in in January, in which case it was like 1.2 mil and now it's 975 so they have a loss. So yeah, you could take that loss or is it money that they inherited and then there's like a hundred thousand dollar basis and now you're looking at $875,000 in gains because that's a big difference between those two in terms of the tax bill. And you could look at that tax bill.
Nate Reineke (19:08)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (19:25)
as a percentage of the overall proceeds and kind of think of that like making air quotes here, like kind of like interest. So you'd have to weigh that factor versus the cost of the loan and origination fees and the pain that you go through with the bank and all the collateral they want and all that good stuff. So it's, I think this is a difficult question to answer without a great deal of detail, but suffice it to say that you, you and I both look at
Nate Reineke (19:32)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (19:52)
practice buy-ins, ⁓ MOB buy-ins, ASC buy-ins on a regular basis. And I can think of like not less than four different ways to finance those. And it's always individualized.
Nate Reineke (20:02)
Definitely. and that's another way of saying that there isn't a ⁓ right answer right out of the box. You know, like you could do either of these and it's probably a good idea. It's not very often where I see buying into a practice as a really bad idea. So, you know, if you want to make it really simple, you say, hey, imagine this taxable money net, like in the taxable account, net of taxes.
W. Ben Utley (20:12)
Yeah.
Nate Reineke (20:31)
So if you had $975,000 sitting on your kitchen table, would you put that in the market or would you pay off this debt? There's nothing special about the debt. It's just debt. Yeah.
W. Ben Utley (20:36)
Mm-hmm.
Okay. I want to play a game. want to play a game.
So listeners, we did not practice this before. making this up on the spot. Nate, I want to call it the factor game. Okay. So factor game is actually my wife and I played this, it's the love you game. And it's like, I say one thing about her that I love and she says one thing about me that, but that'd be weird here. So we're to play the factor game and it's like, I will name one factor consider and you immediately name another factor. And the factor has like, to be somewhere between like two and five words. It's not a conversation. Okay.
Nate Reineke (21:01)
You
Okay.
W. Ben Utley (21:12)
Are you ready? So you saw the first factor.
Nate Reineke (21:16)
⁓ No debt?
W. Ben Utley (21:20)
Interest rates on the note.
Your turn.
Nate Reineke (21:25)
⁓
So is this if we sell out of the taxable? All of them, yeah. Okay, taxes.
W. Ben Utley (21:30)
Now this is all the factors you consider in this, right? Yeah, like if you and I are
taxes, okay. So yeah, I would say capital gains, you say.
Nate Reineke (21:42)
potential growth?
W. Ben Utley (21:43)
I will say ⁓ liquidity needs.
Nate Reineke (21:47)
Mm-hmm.
I mean, risk of leverage, so you're leveraging yourself.
W. Ben Utley (21:54)
leverage. Okay, I
will say ⁓ collateral like collateral used by the bank to secure the loan.
Nate Reineke (22:01)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (22:04)
And you might say, what like terms, right? Or rate. Yeah. Yup. a big one. Impact on the plan. Yeah.
Nate Reineke (22:07)
Yeah, cash flow. Interest rates is a big one.
Yeah,
so this is that's the and that's all I got by the way. That's the biggest one for me that actually complicates things. You can run the numbers seven ways to Sunday and I could make your plan say whatever I want. You know, that's what's uncomfortable about this. We're like, well, if the market does great than this. Well, what if the market does bad than this? A lot of times this comes down to you're going to make more money. You're going to replace it as long as you're doing the right thing with this new income. And you should do what is
W. Ben Utley (22:43)
Yeah.
Nate Reineke (22:45)
simplest and probably with an only look at the factors that you know, and you know your interest rate, you know the buy in amount, you don't know what the market's going to do. So,
W. Ben Utley (22:55)
Yeah.
Nate Reineke (22:56)
you know, I get this from bankers all the time. They're like, well, you could leave the money in the market. like, you must be new here. Sometimes the market goes down.
W. Ben Utley (23:05)
Yeah, yeah, that's right. Doesn't always go up. Yeah.
Nate Reineke (23:07)
You know,
and it's fine, you know, if you want to do that, but I just think about another million dollar loan. I don't know. Maybe it's a good idea to pay it off, but only time will tell. Yeah.
W. Ben Utley (23:17)
Okay, stick a fork in it. We're
moving on.
Nate Reineke (23:22)
Alright, last question. Interventional radiologist from New Jersey. I'm in my 60s and I'm planning to retire very soon. One of my partners is trying to get us to set up a cash balance plan. Given that I'm going to retire very soon, I'm wondering if this is a good idea ⁓ or a bad deal for me. What do you think?
W. Ben Utley (23:47)
Yeah, so I can see one case where it wouldn't be a great idea, but I can the the overwhelming opinion that's come from me is this is a really good thing. All right. So cash balance plans are defined benefit pension plans. And as DB plans, the employer is making a promise to the employees that they're going to deliver a benefit at some point in the future. OK, so sometimes these plans get underfunded.
Nate Reineke (23:58)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (24:16)
And when they get underfunded, there's a liability to the partners. The partners have to cough up some money to put money in these defined benefit plans. But in this case, it's a new plan. So the chances of being underfunded are really small. basically with defined benefit pension plans, cash balance plans, these favor the older participants. The ideal circumstance here is someone, a physician who is on, who's like in their last year of work.
And they contribute a couple hundred thousand dollars to this thing. They contributed all of their top marginal tax rate, which could be as high as 37 % in other states for states. It could be as high as 10 or 11. So we're talking about being in like the 48 % tax bracket. So let's imagine that you're in California and you're earning a bunch of money and you're in the 48 % tax bracket. Okay. So you contribute that this year, December 31st rolls, you looked your glasses, you hurrah.
January 1st, you're now retired and you've got to live on this income. So you turn around on January 1st, you take this money out and let's say that that's all the money that you're going to spend this year. So now you're in a very low tax bracket. You could be in the 22, 24 % tax bracket, guess super low. And let's also imagine that instead of retiring in California, that you're moving to Florida or Washington, right? And so now you don't have the state income tax to pay. So you've got this huge arbitrage. You deferred taxes.
Nate Reineke (25:38)
He
W. Ben Utley (25:43)
at like 48 % and now you're paying taxes in the 20s. That is a $40,000 permanent tax savings on a $200,000 contribution right before you retire. That is the ideal circumstance for this. So for this listener, it is a slam dunk. Yep.
Nate Reineke (25:48)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Right. Yeah,
the older you get, the more it just starts, the more more sense it makes.
W. Ben Utley (26:08)
more sense it makes because really what it is is the tax arbitrage mechanism. It's a little bit like the Roth 401k versus traditional 401k that we talked to death on the show and I'm sure we'll continue talking about it long past my death. But it's really tax arbitrage and the distance in time from when you contribute to the defined benefit plan until you take money out of the defined benefit plan, that matters.
Nate Reineke (26:22)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (26:36)
So at that distance in time is a year or two years, five years, 10 years, you're spreading that tax arbitrage benefit, that permanent tax savings you're spending in over all those years. What if you're like 32, right? And you're not going to retire until you're 65, you're spreading that arbitrage over 33 years. So it's going to be a tiny little benefit per year. And it might not work out, especially if you consider the fact that most of these cash balance plans are invested very conservatively. Right? So.
you're weighing the benefit of the cash balance plan versus the opportunity cost of not investing in something that's more aggressive. And I'm going to take my hat off to Chelsea, who's in our retirement planning specialist here. She did the math on this for one of our younger clients and it just did not pay out. It didn't pencil out. But for older retirees, those that are approaching retirement, it almost always pans out. mean, it's just, it's very slam-ducky.
Nate Reineke (27:30)
Yes.
Yep, agreed.
Alright, that's it for today,
W. Ben Utley (27:37)
And I don't even play basketball. Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. So I guess you're ready for me to take us out. Okay. So, uh, we are financial advisors. We are looking for clients. have room, we have joy, we have, we have humility and we have hilarity occasionally for our clients. Um, if you're thinking that you might need a financial advisor or, or if you have a buddy who doesn't listen to the show and they need to be listening to the show.
Nate Reineke (27:43)
Yes.
W. Ben Utley (28:04)
And then they need us, you can send them to physicianfamily.com, click on the button that says get started, take a little quiz there to see if we're matching. If we are, you and I can speak on the telephone together and determine whether or not we're a match. ⁓ If you're not ready for that, or if you're a listener and you're doing your own stuff and you have a question, you can send that question to podcast at physicianfamily.com. And if it's a great one, we will bring it to the show. If it's silly, then we'll respond and we'll tell you it's silly, but either way you will get an answer from us because that's what we do here.
So until next time, remember you're not just making a living, you are making a life.
