Nate Reineke (00:12)
Hello position moms and dads. I'm Nate Renneke, Certified Financial Planner and Primary Advisor.
W. Ben Utley (00:18)
And I'm Ben Utley, Certified Financial Planner and the Service Team Leader here at Physician Family. And speaking of family, Nate, hard to have a family without a mom. Mother's Day is coming right up.
Nate Reineke (00:30)
right?
Yes. I just asked ⁓ my six year old who's turning seven, what's what he wants to get his mom for Mother's Day. And he said something like, take her to the park or take her to his favorite place. I said, Hey, that's that's not for mom. That's for you. And he started laughing. And I said, you know, I said, you know what mom wants? She wants rest. I'm like, how do we get her some rest? And he said to make her
W. Ben Utley (00:50)
Take her to paintball.
Yeah.
Nate Reineke (00:59)
breakfast in bed, which we've never done actually. I know, for whatever reason, it's something I would totally, we do, but just have never done on Mother's Day. And ⁓ I know, I'm like, man, good idea, we should do that.
W. Ben Utley (01:03)
wow.
Dude, you're leaving points on the table.
Well, speaking of breakfast in bed, the first time I made my wife breakfast in bed that I can remember, we had gone out on a date, I don't know, a few months before. I was like, I want to get to know her a little bit better. And I said, what's your favorite breakfast food? And she told me about these, one that was like impossible to recreate camping. And another one was, I can't remember what it was, of course, because I can't remember, right? But the third one, the third one I remember, she said, I like crepes. I was like, crepes, huh? Those are hard to make.
Nate Reineke (01:38)
No.
Mmm.
W. Ben Utley (01:45)
So I found a friend of mine that was a soul pampered chef and ⁓ I got a, I got a recipe off YouTube and I went over to her house secretly. She sold me a pan and taught me how to make crepes. And then on mother's day, I made three different kinds of crepes with three different fillings and I don't know, something else, some fruit. And I brought it to her as breakfast in bed with hot coffee. ⁓ she was floored. He was floored. Absolutely. And then,
Nate Reineke (02:11)
I believe
that story because when we first met you told me about crepes. You've been married 20 years by that point.
W. Ben Utley (02:15)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. You
know, I used to make crepes every Sunday for my kids and then when they'd have friends come over, you know, my daughters would always ask for crepes and come to find out they're really not that hard to make once you figure out the batter. But yeah, so that's my mother's day story. Yeah. But at this mother's day, we'll probably just go out and get a basket of flowers because she likes hanging baskets. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Nate Reineke (02:22)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so does my mom. She loves hanging baskets.
Yeah, well, it's kind of sad that we have to wait till Mother's Day to think about how great our wives are, but I... Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll take the wee out too. Yeah, I think about it all the time. That's right. Yeah, I was just ⁓ out of town and ⁓ I was like, so how are the kids? And apparently they're just like perfect angels while I'm gone.
W. Ben Utley (02:45)
⁓ hold on, hold on, hold on. Take the wee out of that. I think about how great my wife is all the time. Yeah, yeah, she makes life worth living for me. Yeah.
Nate Reineke (03:05)
Like, what are you doing while I'm gone? She's just like, I'm just living. Just like, okay. Now they're great for her when I'm gone.
W. Ben Utley (03:10)
Wow.
Nice. just a heads up to all you men out there. Don't you dare forget Mother's Day. Don't you dare. want big points, cook for her. You want little points, take her out to a meal. By the way, make some reservations because you're not the only guy thinking that, right? Or pick up some flowers, maybe for the first time in your life. You'd be surprised how many guys don't get their wives flowers. I'm floored. yeah.
Nate Reineke (03:21)
That's right.
Yeah.
Yeah. here's another
tip. When she says she doesn't like flowers, don't believe her. Don't believe it. Come on. That's rookie stuff.
W. Ben Utley (03:46)
Don't believe it. Take that as,
take that as she doesn't like buying herself flowers. Yeah, there you go. Okay. On with the show. All these incredible non-mother's day listener questions.
Nate Reineke (03:53)
There you go.
Okay, speaking is yes.
Yeah, well,
it's funny. The first question I got and it has nothing to do with Mother's Day, but Mother's Day is around the corner and I think this family's Mother's Day gift is a third child. yeah. By the way, here's even extra credit points. When it's your first child's birthday, that is actually the anniversary of you and your wife becoming a parent.
W. Ben Utley (04:15)
Oh, well, that's a gift from mom. I don't know if it's a gift to mom.
you
Nate Reineke (04:32)
So I said, hey, you're about seven years into this parenting thing, because my son's birthday is in a week. She's like, ⁓ melted her heart just for a second. All right, first question is from a surgeon in Connecticut. We are looking to buy a minivan. Given the recent tax tariffs, should we buy new, used, or lease one?
W. Ben Utley (04:37)
Yeah.
That's cute.
⁓ You know, Nate, this is car questions. And for the first five to 10 years of my business life as a financial advisor, I fell for car questions. Like I would get engaged in these conversations. I'd tell them like the low cost way, the total cost of ownership, and nobody ever listened to me. And then I just finally stopped giving car advice altogether.
Nate Reineke (05:02)
Yeah.
Yeah.
It took me a couple years too. I remember the first time I told you, it's not making a big enough difference. And you're like, yeah, I learned that a long time.
W. Ben Utley (05:24)
Yeah. Yes.
No.
Yeah, so here we are giving car advice again. Geez.
Nate Reineke (05:35)
Yeah.
Well, ⁓ here's what I can say. ⁓ No matter what happens with tariffs, you should buy used. Right? mean, it's, but you also answer this, I think an episode or two ago, like the real impact on tariffs for like, let's say a car for physicians is essentially going to be that maybe you don't buy the newest, latest and greatest car. And now you just.
for the same price you're going to get a slightly used car. answer is used, in my opinion. Doesn't have a whole lot to do with tariffs, but ⁓ yeah, buy used. Buy a couple of years old and buy what you can pay for in cash.
W. Ben Utley (06:05)
Could be.
I did the math on leasing one time and the imputed interest rate on that lease was something on the order of 17%. It was insane. Yeah. You know what my best car buying advice is?
Nate Reineke (06:31)
on that.
W. Ben Utley (06:32)
Date your car, marry your mechanic.
Nate Reineke (06:35)
Yes.
W. Ben Utley (06:36)
Find your mechanic first and then find out what kind of cars they like because you're gonna take your car to the mechanic, whether it's new or used, and then buy what they tell you to buy. You say, need something to haul kids around in, what should I get? And they'll say, you know, whatever kind of car, we love, those are, we don't have to fix those a whole lot. We love working on them and blah, blah. That's what you want. Marry your mechanic, date your car.
Nate Reineke (07:01)
Here's another great thing about marrying your mechanic. When your kids get old enough to drive, my kids aren't that old, but this is what my parents did to me. They introduced me to their mechanic. They're like, get to know him, because you're not going to drive a car nice enough where you won't need to know this guy.
W. Ben Utley (07:12)
Uh-huh.
Is that, is that
Mary, Mary, your body guy, ⁓ date your car? It's like they need body work. Yeah.
Nate Reineke (07:24)
So
I knew my mechanic they they talked me off the ledge a few times like I want this really cool whatever they're like now buy Honda like every time so and then I got to know him really well you learn how to find one for you know that isn't like screwing you over and then you learn to buy learn to find one that's like you know you need this but not that right now and then as you start to upgrade in car you actually have a feel for
W. Ben Utley (07:34)
Yeah. Yeah.
Nate Reineke (07:52)
⁓ Hey, is this worth my time? Like maybe now it's actually worth paying the extra amount of money to buy a newer car. But you don't even know. Like I hear people that only buy new cars, they're terrified of their mechanic. I'm like, see my mechanic. I drive bad cars. I see him once every couple years. It's not a big deal.
W. Ben Utley (08:06)
Bye.
Yeah,
Now mechanics are awesome if you get a good one. Yeah. Okay.
Nate Reineke (08:14)
Yeah, that's right.
As far as the tariffs thing though, mean, yeah, they're going to price the cars are going to go up and you should probably
W. Ben Utley (08:23)
You have a chance right
now to buy a used car and perhaps sell it for more than you bought it for. Because if we get these tariffs and they stick, then the cost of all cars are going to go up because of what they call the substitution effect in econ. So, all right.
Nate Reineke (08:29)
That's right.
Next question from a double dock family in Kentucky. All right. My wife, ⁓ children and I are moving states and switching jobs. I am thinking we would max out the 401k contributions at my old job because I don't think we will get any match from our employer on the other side until after the end of the year. I do know that my wife has a very good retirement policy on her end, but
W. Ben Utley (09:03)
Mm.
Nate Reineke (09:10)
We are not sure of the details. Is this a good idea? So.
W. Ben Utley (09:13)
Interesting.
I haven't heard retirement policy, maybe plan retirement plan. Yeah.
Nate Reineke (09:16)
I know plan. Yeah, this is
just what they wrote. But there's not a ton of details here. So I'm just going to say at a high level, this is a good idea to max out before you leave. It makes it administratively more straightforward because when you go, when you're in the middle of two plans, like let's say half the year, you're at one 401k and half the year you got a new job and a new 401k. Those 401ks do not communicate and you're kind of at risk of over contributing.
W. Ben Utley (09:32)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Nate Reineke (09:46)
which gives you a headache, you know, come tax time and you breaking some rules. So, you know, if, it's close and, I'll go in a minute, I'll tell you what I mean by if it's close, then you should just max one side out. Like before you leave, you max it out. Cause when you get to the new 401k, ⁓ usually there's a waiting period before you can contribute or get the benefit of contributing like a match. But let's just say there was a great,
W. Ben Utley (10:00)
Mm-hmm.
Nate Reineke (10:14)
benefit at the new job and a not so good benefit at the old one. It is possible to do both and split the contributions. It's just a little time consuming and complicated to do the math.
W. Ben Utley (10:26)
It takes
a little know-how, but it's not impossible.
Nate Reineke (10:29)
It's not impossible. It's not too bad. Usually if the matches are roughly the same, we'll just say max it out the first job. But yeah.
W. Ben Utley (10:38)
Yeah. The thing
to know here is that the 401k contribution limit applies whether you have one employer 401k or 17 employer 401ks. It's the same limit combined across all of them. And if you go beyond that, you're going to have taxes and penalties.
Nate Reineke (10:51)
That's right.
Yeah. Okay.
W. Ben Utley (10:57)
But Taxes and Penalties is like a song, you know.
I think I could come up with a whole song around taxes and penalties.
Nate Reineke (11:03)
That would probably be pretty boring.
W. Ben Utley (11:05)
Yeah. And speaking of retirement stuff,
⁓ on one of the shows recently, I, promised that I would deliver a thing called look before you leave about it's a retirement checklist. Well, I spoke out of turn. did a little willy nilly. do have look before you leave, but it's not about retirement. So I am actively working on a pre-retirement checklist and when it is done, I will offer it again. So those of you that wrote in diligently and asked for it, I appreciate your interest. I'm sorry to disappoint you.
But I will deliver on that at some point in the near future. I'm actively writing.
Nate Reineke (11:41)
Thanks.
Okay, next question is from a hospitalist in Utah. We plan to retire in about 15 years when we are 60. We bought a new home in 2023 and are considering refinancing. With a high interest rate, should we refinance to a 15-year loan to pay off the mortgage faster?
W. Ben Utley (12:00)
That's about 15 years out from retirement, 15 year note. For my money, that's a yeah.
Nate Reineke (12:05)
That's just a yes. Yeah, there's really nothing more to think about. Now, if you're further out from retirement and there's some flexibility you might need, but you don't have flexibility. You're gonna retire at 60, you gotta pay this thing off by 60 anyways, might as well take a lower rate.
W. Ben Utley (12:19)
Yeah. If, if we get a nice fat recession and if the federal reserve is still independent and if they fight the recession by lowering interest rates, then people may get another shot at refinancing because typically the mortgage rates are kind of based on closely on the 10 year treasury. Unfortunately, this Fed doesn't control the 10 year rate as we've, as we've all realized. Um, so there's a chance that rates could go down.
Nate Reineke (12:34)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (12:46)
And you might get another shot at refi, but I'd refinance now in that 15 year. think that's a really good move because we like to see people pay off those mortgages before they retire. Yeah.
Nate Reineke (12:55)
Yes.
All right, that was, yeah. Usually it's kind of hard, but no. All right, here's ⁓ an interesting question then. So we have some diligent listeners and they're ⁓ testing the strength of some advice that we've given them past. I think it is, it's a good one though. I saved it for last, all right. Neurosurgeon in Maryland.
W. Ben Utley (12:57)
That was easy. Wham, slam dunk, yeah.
That's okay.
Does this stump the chump? Is that what this is gonna be? You threw me this softball and now you're gonna throw me, you know, hardball. Okay, fine.
Nate Reineke (13:26)
I've heard Ben on a few occasions now emphatically recommend traditional 403B contributions for doctors instead of Roth 403B contributions. The reasoning is that doctors are in a high tax bracket during work and presumably they will be in a lower tax bracket during retirement. That's sound advice for sure. However, are there exceptions to this rule?
Would you still recommend a traditional pre-tax 403B contribution even if the physician already has a large 403B balance? I'm in my mid-50s, will continue to work till late 60s. Total retirement accounts including my wife's, which is 403B, 457, SEP accounts, currently total 6.5 million. Would it make sense to pay taxes now at a 37 %?
federal income tax bracket plus 5 % state, so I avoid significant RMDs and being in the highest tax bracket indefinitely once RMDs start. ⁓ Plan to leave money to kids, not charity. In other words, are there exceptions to the notions that doctors should always choose traditional pre-tax 403b or 401k contributions?
W. Ben Utley (14:40)
I think yes, but before I go there, I want to defend emphatically. Okay. So for every hyper diligent listener that we have, like this guy, my hat is off to you for paying that level of attention to your future tax bill. For every guy like that, there's going be a hundred people out there that are not going to get this and they're going to waste a whole bunch of tax money. Right? So, you know, it's a...
Nate Reineke (14:43)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Mm-hmm.
That's right. Let me,
let me actually point out another thing that's unique about this listener. Forward through B 457 and set all pre-tax and it sounds like that's where most of the money is going. That's a pretty unique account structure. That's a lot of money going in pre-tax that you don't see very often. Imagine the average doc. They got a forward through B back door Roth and a taxable account.
W. Ben Utley (15:08)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nate Reineke (15:32)
It's spread out pretty similarly and you're not going to get $6.5 million in those accounts unless you have a giant taxable account. And therefore you'll have tax diversification.
W. Ben Utley (15:46)
In this particular case though, I think I'm going to stand pat on the advice of contribute to your traditional 403B. And here's why. All right. So if you're a neurosurgeon and you've got that kind of balance, you didn't just stumble into that. And if your spouse is employed too, I'm guessing that you're in the top marginal tax bracket. Okay. And if you're in the top marginal tax bracket now,
And you just happen to be in the top marginal tax bracket in retirement. There's no difference between Roth and non Roth, right? It's, has to, the whole decision has to do with the difference between the tax rate that you have now and the tax rate that you'll have in the future. Okay. So there's a couple of caveats here. One is, ⁓ our, our illustrious president has, ⁓ promised to raise taxes on those who make more than a million dollars to 40%.
There is like, there's some chance that the top rate could go up. But I'm thinking that in these distributions, they're probably not going to touch that. They're probably not going to, because I mean, $6.5 million over six and a half years. Yeah, you might exceed a million, but my thinking on this is that they probably will not be in that 40 % bracket, right? So if they're in the 37 now and they're in the 37 in retirement, it's, you know, it's all the same. No big difference.
Now, ⁓ this person is in Maryland. And I looked up this morning with the tax rate in Maryland is it's like five and three quarters percent. Okay. So there's a chance that they could move out of Maryland. Like if they moved to Texas or Florida or Alaska or Washington, states that don't have an income tax, then they're not going to pay that five and three quarters percent on their withdrawals. So there's a chance that they could use geographic arbitrage and be in a lower tax bracket. So that's, that's a thought.
And then I guess, you know, provided that this plan allows for in-plan Roth conversions, they still have the option to convert. So they can contribute to the pre-tax and then they could later have the option to convert to the 403, see the Roth portion of 403B. But if you just contribute to the Roth 403B, you can't back that out. So this is the whole salt in the soup thing.
Put the salt in the soup. You can't take it back out. Salt the soup slowly and taste it in between. So, I'm thinking that is the issue. Now there is one more case and it is this. we only think about income taxes most of time when we talk about this. And if there's an inheritance involved or there may be a state tax. In fact, I looked it up and Maryland does have an estate tax.
And they have an inheritance tax, which doesn't apply in families. But if you basically, uh, move money to someone outside the family, then there's an inheritance tax that is not insubstantial. So one of the things that you might want to do, and I've actually seen some of our older clients do this, they'll do Roth conversions, but it's not to save taxes during their lives. It is because in your traditional four or three B all that money.
is taxable and you could imagine like parsing that into two buckets. It's the money that's going to be leftover after you pay taxes on it. And there's the tax money that's in there. It's kind of all glommed up in one pile, but when the government applies an estate tax, they apply it to the whole balance, which means you could be taxed twice on the money that's in a traditional IRA or traditional 403B. So one way to lower your estate tax bill
is to convert your IRA or your four three B right now and pay the taxes, which gets the taxes out of the estate. And that lowers the estate taxes. That's, that's something that is super nuanced. doesn't apply to everybody because we have a huge federal estate tax deduction and some states have a large federal state tax deduction like Maryland does, but here in Oregon, you know, the estate tax deduction is a million bucks. And there are ways around that as well. I've actually
use that. as we're thinking about taxes, we're not just thinking about income taxes federally, we're thinking about federal, state, as well as a state and perhaps inheritance taxes. That was a lot.
Nate Reineke (20:15)
Mm-hmm. was a lot. Can I push back on something or really just I have a feeling that listeners actually have a question about something you said. When you are saying and you've said this on a few episodes. So when you say there is no difference whether or not you're paying 37 % now and if you're paying 37 % now and 37 % later, tell me why there's no difference between
W. Ben Utley (20:40)
Mm-hmm.
Nate Reineke (20:43)
paying the 37, getting it in a Roth now and then avoiding it later because there I think what this question is essentially saying is if I pay the taxes now then it can grow tax free and then you pull it out without paying 37 percent but what do you mean by it there's no difference.
W. Ben Utley (20:46)
Mm-hmm.
Well, so if you're expecting your income tax rate on contribution to be the same as your income tax rate on distribution, then it doesn't really matter whether you do Roth or regular. However, if you choose Roth, you can't go back. If you choose traditional, you can always convert to Roth. So you leave that option open and in planning, you want your options. Yeah, I guess there might be some case
Nate Reineke (21:15)
Mm-hmm.
I see, okay.
W. Ben Utley (21:27)
where it makes sense to contribute to Roth now that I cannot conceive of because, you know, there's nothing more unique than someone's tax bill, right? Giving tax advice is notoriously difficult to give it with precision without actually using software because our code is so darn complicated. ⁓ But, you know, we have some software that we use with retired or retiring people that actually takes all this into consideration. It takes
Nate Reineke (21:36)
Yeah.
That's right.
W. Ben Utley (21:54)
the tax brackets, the distributions, need for income, with the source of the taxes to be paid. You know, like if the taxes are gonna be paid out of a taxable account that is subject to capital gains, even includes the capital gains. So we got this wired tight for someone who's actually interested in retirement distributions. But in the absence of that, it's hard to wave your hands and do rule of thumb, except to say that in all the cases that I've seen, ⁓ traditional contributions are better than
Nate Reineke (22:21)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, this was unique, but I would agree. And I've probably written 200 retirement plans and I have not seen a situation where they should be contributing to their Roth 401k, but this is unique. It has a lot of money in pre-tax accounts. mean, another idea is if you want a little tax diversification, like start, I didn't see any mention of backdoor Roth here. I know it's not a ton, 7,000 bucks. got maybe
W. Ben Utley (22:41)
Mm-hmm.
Nate Reineke (22:52)
more if he's in his mid-50s. But put some money in a taxable account.
W. Ben Utley (22:56)
I'd be willing
to bet there's a money socked away in a backdoor Roth, it's not. Yeah, but that's a whole different story. I mean, that's a slam dunk. You should do that. ⁓ You know, he's probably, this guy's a student up there. He's probably not going to ask about that because it's not relevant. But I think for the rest of our listeners, yeah, this backdoor Roth, you should be doing that as well.
Nate Reineke (23:00)
There has to be, right? You just didn't mention it.
Yeah, of course.
No, I just mean...
What I mean by that is what he's get I think a little bit of what he's getting at is tax diversification and the only accounts listed are all pre-tax. I mean another point is that I've never written a plan where someone shouldn't use some backdoor routes and a taxable account really. But yeah, get some money in other accounts.
W. Ben Utley (23:21)
Mm-hmm.
I haven't seen a strong case
for tax diversification. Like my thinking on this is you pay the least taxes you can over the course of your lifetime. If you minimize your overall lifetime tax burden with smart moves, which are kind of hard to see, ⁓ then minimum taxes is minimum taxes. It doesn't matter if it's diversified or not. we think about diversification as a good thing, which it is if you're investing in
Nate Reineke (23:41)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (24:00)
individual stocks or different markets, right? Because some of those things could blow up. They could literally go bankrupt. But the US tax code is the last thing that will ever go bankrupt, right? They're going to be there with their hand out. So in terms of diversification, I don't think that that matters. I think tax diversification is just a wild goose chase. think, you know, minimizing overall lifetime income tax impact. Honestly, it's hard, it's complicated, and most people don't value it.
Nate Reineke (24:09)
Yeah.
W. Ben Utley (24:27)
They value tax breaks that they get right now rather than reducing taxes over the next 10 or 20 years. We know how to do it. You know, we can certainly do that. ⁓ yeah, but most people are not asking for that. They w they in fact, you know, the thing that steams me is I'll tell a client, Hey, let's set up a backdoor Roth IRA. Let's do this. They go to their CPA and the CPA says, you can't do that. You can't contribute to traditional IRA. And I'm like, yes, you can.
You just can't deduct it. And so they don't value it because it's not a deduction they can take this year on your tax return. It's short-term thinking, a long-term world.
Nate Reineke (24:58)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah, I think that there is a case for it, but not just for its own sake. I think it's nice to have the... Because most physicians are forced into tax diversification. They have pre-tax money, they have post-tax money, they have taxable account money. And there isn't a case that we can point to because it doesn't happen yet, but...
If you're worried about what taxes will be in 30 years, it's nice to have it spread across all three buckets.
W. Ben Utley (25:34)
I wouldn't pay
extra taxes now for the hope of saving taxes later. Yeah. Yeah. But, for those of you that are waving the red flag saying income taxes could go up, they could go up, but they could also go down. I follow the tax foundation. And when it comes to tax time, where we start to play with the tax code, the thing that they recommend is that we lower the rate and broaden the base, which is to say we tax more people at a lower rate.
Nate Reineke (25:36)
No, that's right. I agree. totally agree. Yeah.
W. Ben Utley (26:02)
That seems to be what they recommend. I don't know exactly why. Maybe it's fairer. But tax wonks who think about this, that's what they think. They don't think higher rates. They think lower rates and more people paying taxes.
Nate Reineke (26:10)
Mm-hmm.
Right. That's it. Yeah. ⁓
W. Ben Utley (26:13)
Okay. Is that it? Is that, that's the end of our list. Woof man. Well,
⁓ Maryland surgeon. Thank you so much for Maryland neurosurgeon. Sorry. Thanks so much for, ⁓ thanks for playing stump the jump today. I don't know if I actually answered that, you know, something you're not, but
Nate Reineke (26:27)
Yeah.
Well,
when I was preparing for it, the thought I had in my head was, is a tough, I totally understand where he's coming from. ⁓ This is a math problem, and with half the inputs, you're sort of guessing. But hey, I understand where he's coming from.
W. Ben Utley (26:37)
Bish.
Yeah, that's right.
And speaking of preparing Nate, here we go, here's the plug, right? If you're preparing for a good financial future and you would like to minimize your lifetime taxes or at least have a shot at it, maybe we're a match for you. So you can go to physicianfamily.com, click the get started button, take a little quiz to see if we might be a match. And if you're not ready for that, you can do like this guy just did and send us an awesome freaking question to podcast at physicianfamily.com. In the meantime,
Nate Reineke (26:54)
Okay.
W. Ben Utley (27:19)
Make sure that you pick up something for your wife because she works harder than you do. We know this, right? Appreciate her on Mother's Day. In the meantime, remember you're not just making a living, you're making a life.
