Nate Reineke (00:12)
Hello physician moms and dads. I'm Nate Renneke, certified financial planner and primary advisor.
W. Ben Utley (00:18)
and I'm Ben Utley, the service team leader here at Physician Family. May I have a little story for us today? So we've been experiencing quite a bit of new things going on out there, and I've been answering questions that I, some of which I've never answered before, which is rare for a guy who's been at this for three decades, but we got some totally new stuff going on. And I've found that it's been helpful to begin answering those questions by defining terms.
Nate Reineke (00:26)
Tell me.
W. Ben Utley (00:48)
So I have heard that, I've heard clients use a word, which means something to me and it means something to them, but it's not necessarily the same thing. I want to tell you a little story. So I'm going to flip this and I'm going to say, it's going to be doctor patient. know, what patients hear, what doctors say are not necessarily the same meaning. So this is years ago, right? One day my wife comes home and she's just in tears. And I'm like, what's going on? She said, I just got back from the doctor's office and I said,
Really? Like what happened? She said, he said, have influenza. And she thought she was going to die. And I said, sweetie, that's, that's just the, they call the common cold or flu. She's like, really? I said, yeah, no big deal. And I've had some aha moments like that with physicians that I talk with about kind of financial terms. So I think it's important for you and me to remember that
Nate Reineke (01:25)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (01:47)
uh, you know, what the audience hears is not always exactly what we intend for them to hear. And, know, I always, physicians are very intelligent people, right? But there's a little experience that goes into this too. And, uh, sometimes I worry that we're, you know, we're, teaching the graduate level course here or the 400 level course. Uh, and sometimes our, students have not had the 100 or 200 level intro to financial terms thing. So I think it's just important to keep that in mind.
Nate Reineke (01:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (02:16)
But the same token folks, if you have a question that is even a basic one, or you're just like, what is this? Or how does this work for me? It doesn't have to be advanced. can be anything. Podcast.physicianfamily.com. That's your, that's like your free advice line into the podcast. So.
Nate Reineke (02:32)
Yeah,
I can think of a couple words that I not only have had to define recently, but had to explain that there's a spectrum of meaning or a spectrum, I guess, of the way people take it. ⁓ So, yeah, nuance.
W. Ben Utley (02:42)
Yes.
Nuance. Nuance. It's not just
E. coli, it's E. coli with the subvariant.
Nate Reineke (02:51)
Yeah.
Okay, let's get to the questions then. So first question is from an emergency medicine doc in Massachusetts.
Just wanted to hear if you have any thoughts right now given the market downturn and investment strategies in light of tariffs and what what could turn into a trade war. I know we have a long time until our retirement goal so doing anything drastic now I know is not recommended but it's hard to see $60,000 retirement investments gone in a few weeks and anticipate that will go down further in the coming weeks and months.
W. Ben Utley (03:12)
And.
Hmm.
Nate Reineke (03:30)
There wasn't exactly a question there, but there's some implied questions. What do you think?
W. Ben Utley (03:34)
They wanted
to know if we have any thoughts. Answer is yes.
Nate Reineke (03:36)
Yeah, yeah, we have thoughts. ⁓
W. Ben Utley (03:41)
⁓
Nate Reineke (03:42)
What do you think?
W. Ben Utley (03:44)
Well, what do think? The thoughts I have are this time feels different. This time is probably not different because there have been a number of times when I felt like this time was different, but it wasn't actually different. In my distant past, there have been some times where I responded as if this time was different. And then when I look back at my journal where I keep these moves, I'm like, no, why did I do that? Right?
Nate Reineke (03:59)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
W. Ben Utley (04:11)
⁓ and I've had a couple of clients who didn't believe me when I said this time's not different. And they got out only to get back in when things had gone up and they locked in their losses. So, ⁓ here's what I would say about this kind of thing. There may come a time when it is actually different. And at that time, the world may end, maybe, maybe the best bet is what I call the gold and guns portfolio, which is gold under your bed and guns under your pillow.
Right? Gold and guns. But until that time happens, every time you think it's different, guess what? It's not. And that one time when it's different, partner out with your portfolio is not going to change anything because it's not gold and it's not guns. Right? So, ⁓ I'm just going to go out there and let them say this time's not different.
Nate Reineke (04:49)
Mm-hmm.
That's right.
W. Ben Utley (05:00)
So don't screw up a 30-year future for the sake of the whims of a madman.
Nate Reineke (05:07)
Yeah. Yeah. And it's so not different that I can say we anticipated this. In fact, if you were a client of ours for the last six years, we've been saying, hey, the market's pretty expensive. Don't know when it's going to go up or down, but just be aware. It could go through a downturn.
W. Ben Utley (05:33)
Yes. For those of you that are listeners who've never been through our portfolio onboarding process, we have this neat little email called the investment policy statement. And it's written because nobody's ever written their own investment policy statement, right? But it basically says, I am a moderate investor or I'm an aggressive investor, and I want to invest 90 % of my stuff in stocks and 10 % in bonds or
You know, I'm a conservative guy who's got $20 million. I want to invest, you know, mostly in bonds and a little bit of stocks, right? And I'm willing to tolerate volatility that could reduce the value of my account by 50%, 30%, 20 % over any given one year time period. willing to, I'm willing to endure that volatility. have that risk tolerance. Now it's not an agreement.
It's not a contract. It's not a hedge clause. It is simply a meeting of the minds. And I've been doing this since I became an investment advisor on my own, like 28, 29 years. I've been using that same similar statement because we know the market's going to go down. We know that. And we basically promise that at some point you're going to lose money. That's just how markets go. I would say that expecting the market to stay up
and go up and lock up is equivalent of becoming a new parent and expecting to have a baby that never has a poopy diaper. Because guess what? Babies poop and markets take dumps too, right? And you don't throw away your kid just because they took a crap. And we're not gonna throw away our investments or do something drastic just because the market's in the dumps, right? So, know, hang on, this is like, this is a lifer, right?
Nate Reineke (07:05)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. ⁓
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (07:25)
When you make a baby, you're on a ride, right? And when you're a serious investor, you're tucked in for the long haul. And I got to tell you, know, whoever is the source of this stuff, they probably won't be alive by the time you're spending your retirement. And if you're about to retire and you're our client, you probably have a big slug of bonds or you damn well should have.
Nate Reineke (07:29)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Agreed. ⁓ it's something that for this particular person ⁓ had to happen. If the market kept going up like it has been for the last three years, which is, you know, this is far from trying to ⁓ rub it in someone's face, I guess. But the person that hasn't been investing for last five years, they have had incredible returns. So incredible that I would say ⁓ kind of scary.
W. Ben Utley (08:06)
Mm-hmm.
Nate Reineke (08:16)
levels of returns. They're so good that you cannot expect that to keep happening because at the root of all this is real businesses that have to make enough money to ⁓ make you money on your money. If the value of these companies keeps going up at an unsustainable level, then your investments will have to stop growing before retirement. ⁓
W. Ben Utley (08:18)
BLEEP
That's right.
Yes, I just,
so I just got off the phone with a guy who was reading the Vanguard market forecast out like five or 10 years. And I think the reason Vanguard puts that forecast out is so they can know how wrong they were when they look back. Because these forecasts are never right. I don't think Vanguard's forecasts have been right. read a little, I read a little blog who occasionally brings up the Vanguard forecast and looks back and like they weren't right. I don't know why people forecast returns, but here's the thing to know, right? If you
Nate Reineke (08:55)
you
W. Ben Utley (09:10)
buy expensive stocks, you should expect a low or negative return. If you buy really cheap stocks, you should expect a, uh, a return or something positive. The cheaper you buy your stocks, the better your returns are to be over the long haul period that, and that applies to valuation. It's not prices, it's valuation. Okay. So, um, yeah. And I would say just keep going. Keep doing your thing. Yeah.
Nate Reineke (09:25)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
keep going.
Okay, ⁓ cardiologist in Oregon.
I work for a nonprofit that is being acquired. What should I do with my non-governmental 457B, which needs to be distributed over the next 12 months with at least 50 % distributed in 2025 and the remainder in 2026?
W. Ben Utley (09:57)
Nate, I want to get on my non-governmental 457B soapbox, but the audience has heard my voice for the last seven minutes. So will you please get on the soapbox and jump up and down about 457Bs?
Nate Reineke (10:03)
Yes.
Yeah. Okay. So, ⁓ It's interesting when I talk to people about their 457Bs and especially people who have been funding them for a long time and they say, you should probably stop contributing to this. They look at me with crazy eyes. And I remind them that I understand that
And by the way, if you tell your friends at work that you're going to stop contributing to these, they're going to look at you with crazy eyes. So we're aware of this. Here's the problem. ⁓ These accounts come with what's known as a substantial risk of forfeiture. Substantial risk of forfeiture. ⁓ And what that is is essentially ⁓ it means that if your hospital or the
W. Ben Utley (10:33)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Nate Reineke (10:57)
your work, they go bankrupt, you lose this money.
W. Ben Utley (11:02)
Bye bye. Doesn't matter how it's invested, it could all be in cash. Bye bye. Bye bye. Yeah. Yes.
Nate Reineke (11:03)
Bye, all done.
Yep, because the creditors get it. right.
Now, I know you're sitting there at work. You're earning a nice living and everything seems great. you're pro. Yeah, payment to all that. And so you want to avoid paying all these taxes right now. So you'd like to put money in a 457. And it seems like everything's in good shape.
W. Ben Utley (11:18)
big taxes. Yep. yeah.
Nate Reineke (11:35)
like financially healthy hospital, right? Ben, you've seen hospitals go from riches to rags really fast. And, and so, but, you know, the people I'm talking to, they generally don't believe that's going to happen to them. Okay. So, so let's just set aside this substantial risk of forfeiture. Keep saying substantial cause everyone.
W. Ben Utley (11:45)
Yes, I have.
Substantial
Nate Reineke (12:03)
This is what, you know, I'm not calling it that. Yes.
W. Ben Utley (12:04)
This is the new drinking game. It won't be kombucha for plan anymore. It'd be kombucha for Financial us to know substantial
Nate Reineke (12:09)
substantial. yes.
So let's set that aside for a moment. If you have a non governmental 457B, the real thing that's probably going to happen to you, in fact, I've only seen it done successfully one time because the person retired the year after they contributed to it. But if you have a long time left in your career, the chances that you either leave this job, your company gets bought out, which is in this question, or really
Probably ⁓ the leaving the job part. I mean if you're leave this job at some point in the next 30 years What happens is they have to give you this money right now? They just have to pay you out and you might be asking the question Can't I just roll it over? Probably not because you'd have to find a job that not only has a non-governmental 457b But also accepts rollovers and that really generally doesn't
W. Ben Utley (12:48)
Yep.
That's like rare and rare.
Nate Reineke (13:04)
Yeah, so the reality is all the taxes that you saved now get lumped into usually one year.
W. Ben Utley (13:12)
So you're making all these nice little contributions at the top of your marginal tax bracket. And all of sudden you get all those contributions back in one lump sum at the top of your marginal tax bracket. And if you're in the 24 % marginal tax bracket where you're making your contributions, you might get that back in the 30s. You might get that back in the 37 % stinking tax bracket. It's like the anti-defined benefit plan. It's like the opposite of how those things work.
Nate Reineke (13:17)
Yes.
Yeah. And so at the
W. Ben Utley (13:41)
You know what I find amazing Nate, it's like you've you've been an advisor for ⁓ Coming on like eight ten years now. You've been with us for what eight years, right? So I've been at this for over 20 years 30 plus years and in my career I've never seen this work out a single time Not once not once and I've always seen this tax time bomb explode Every time and I've seen CEOs of not-for-profits and for profits that had these well actually not-for-profits
Nate Reineke (13:49)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
W. Ben Utley (14:11)
who had the 457 plan and it didn't work out. You know, they're like, the company's solid, it's fine, everything's good. And then they're taken over, it all gets distributed.
Nate Reineke (14:13)
Mm-hmm.
Yep. And so the question is, why would you? It's not, how can I, how can I avoid the risk while still getting my tax breaks? It's like, you're not going to get the tax break. Why would you? Why would you do this?
W. Ben Utley (14:32)
Because you're a bad, you're a bad doctor friend because friends don't let friends
invest in 457 non-governmental plans.
Nate Reineke (14:38)
Yes. Yeah, this is non-governmental. so ⁓ you generally, not generally, I've never seen a case where it worked. It was going to work out except for one. And it was the most unique thing I've ever seen. Doctor was about to retire, got bought out, had to change jobs, was going to work there for one year. I said, well, probably a whole not a whole lot of risk. This place goes under one year. And if it does, you lost twenty three thousand bucks.
W. Ben Utley (15:07)
So in our combined 40 years of doing this, we've seen it happen once. Okay, so here's the thing. So this question, ⁓ basically what I heard is they're gonna distribute half this year and half next year. I have to say of the distribution things, this is the most humane I have ever seen. Because with these things, you wanna spread it out over time, if your pay is gonna be the same, or you wanna lump it up in a year when you have low pay.
Nate Reineke (15:09)
Yeah, once. And it probably saved a grand total of three grand in taxes.
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (15:33)
For example, if you were about to retire and they did this to you, it'd be better to push it off into your retirement year so you're in a lower bracket. But it sounds like the powers that be in this case did a lot of careful thinking about this and decided to split it over two years. So it's less likely to put them in the top marginal brackets. This is a recognition of the powers that be that it's a raw deal. It's a raw deal. So no tax break and substantial risk of forfeiture. Why bother?
Nate Reineke (15:56)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (16:02)
I don't know.
Nate Reineke (16:03)
Mm-hmm. I don't know. I guess they hope you stay for 30 years and they stay for 30 years, but let's stop.
W. Ben Utley (16:09)
That collapsing sound
you hear, that's sound of our soapbox going down.
Nate Reineke (16:12)
Yeah.
All right. Next question from a cardiologist in Colorado.
W. Ben Utley (16:19)
You know what I love about Colorado? It's where John Denver's from.
Nate Reineke (16:21)
What's that?
Nice. Alright.
W. Ben Utley (16:25)
I'm going to save you
from my John Denver imitations and songs. But yeah, I heard it was a rough year for skiing there this year. I heard they didn't get as much snow.
Nate Reineke (16:33)
Thank
I don't keep up with skiing. I got hurt one time snowboarding and now I just try to stay away from the mountain.
W. Ben Utley (16:42)
I got a kid Montana, I hear about skiing all the time.
Nate Reineke (16:44)
All right, my wife and I are starting to look in our neighborhood for a new home. This process could take a while, so we're not putting our home on the market until we have found a new place. I was hoping to review options for financing the new home. My bank told me today that they would need 15 % down. We have some cash shaved. I'm guessing this won't quite get us there, but we will be close. Should we get a line of
against the equity to make up the difference.
W. Ben Utley (17:12)
Hmm.
Why don't you take this one? You're a housing guru.
Nate Reineke (17:17)
Yeah. Tiny, tiny little soapbox Ben So tiny you can barely see it. But I keep seeing this over and over and over where everybody wants to buy before they sell. And I think that everyone has ⁓ some PTSD from the COVID market. It is okay to buy a house contingent on the sale of your house. That is fine. And if you
W. Ben Utley (17:30)
Mm.
Nate Reineke (17:46)
If for whatever reason if that makes this deal fall through I think the wise decision is to just to move a little slower There's gonna be a new house for sale down the street tomorrow I know it's not actually tomorrow, but in the grand scheme of things is basically tomorrow Just take this slower. It's
W. Ben Utley (18:05)
What I found triggering about this question was some banker has told a physician that had to have 15 % down. And I'm like, in what world does a physician have to have 15 %? Like I've seen zero, I've seen five, I've seen 10, 15, like really? Such that they're going to have to get a home equity line of credit. And by the way, kids, if you're, if you're planning to bridge your loan like this, and you have an old home with a bunch of equity in it, you're thinking about getting home equity line of credit on that house and selling it. Guess what?
Nate Reineke (18:11)
Yeah.
W. Ben Utley (18:34)
you better secure that home equity line of credit before your old house goes on the market. Because once your house is on the market, banks are not going to touch that home equity line of credit. Okay. This is a do before you list kind of thing if you're going to do that. But I think before you looked at the HELOC, I would kind of look under the couch cushions, in which case you might actually look in your taxable portfolio. So if you recently invested in your taxable portfolio, you might have some losses in there and you could harvest some of those losses.
Nate Reineke (18:43)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (19:02)
to offset some of your taxes and future gains and use that to purchase your home because the alternative is, you know, mortgage rates that are 7%. I'm sorry, but it might be difficult to beat 7 % in the coming year or two. So that's another consideration I'd make.
Nate Reineke (19:17)
Yeah, I agree. You ⁓ in certain moments like this, when there is money to be saved, you kind of have to all hands on deck, try to find as much as you can, do the best that you can without completely screwing up your plan. But you're going to get a bunch of cash here in a minute when you sell your house. So you replace all that. But the heat lock is, you know, now that I'm off my soapbox, the heat lock is not a bad idea. In fact, it's a pretty good idea. the
W. Ben Utley (19:36)
Yes.
Okay.
Nate Reineke (19:44)
You as long as you don't go crazy and go find that someone that's willing to sell you you know give you a hundred percent of the value of your home. Most of them are eighty percent. Eighty percent loan to value so to find that for a moment then remembering let's define that.
W. Ben Utley (19:57)
Yeah,
so, so yeah, so I want to stop here for a second. It's not just loan to value. It's combined loan to value. you have a $100,000 home like such things this right. $100,000 home and you have a $40,000 mortgage on it. You have $60,000 in equity. So your loan to value ratio right now is 40,000. That's the loan value 100,000. So that's 40 % loan to value or LTV and mortgage speak. Now let's say that you can pick up another
Nate Reineke (20:08)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (20:27)
$20,000 home equity line of credit. So your total indebtedness is now $60,000. That's your combined loan. So you get your combined loan to value ratio, which is 60%. Typically with home equity lines of credit, I have not seen one go up to a hundred percent since before COVID, but it's fairly common to see the combined loan to value ratio with seconds like home equity line of credit be 80%. So you can figure out what your debt is.
Nate Reineke (20:53)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (20:56)
⁓ actually figure out the value of your home multiply that by eighty percent subtract out the debt that you have and that's amount that you might be able to get on a home equity line of credit boom defined
Nate Reineke (21:06)
Yeah, couple pitfall here's.
Yeah, we're in Colorado here, Ben. So these are, I think we're in Colorado Springs too. Yeah. So these home equity lines of credits, ⁓ they usually have a limit to how much you can. So let's say you don't have a mortgage and you got a million dollar house, you're like, I'm going go get an $800,000 HELOC. Usually there's a limit of two or 300,000.
W. Ben Utley (21:13)
Don't try this in New York kids.
Nate Reineke (21:35)
So you got a little wiggle room here, but at the end of the day, it would be okay to wait six months and save up. the home buying makes everyone crazy. It made me crazy too. When I'm buying and selling houses, I know the feeling. Just take it a little bit slower. Get that 5 % down. It's no big deal. So it depends on your situation. If you're a new doc and it's gonna take you five years to get 20 % down, I can see that, but I'm...
family in Colorado almost has the cash, but 20 % down and keep their home. think they could probably build up a little more cash.
W. Ben Utley (22:11)
Yeah, just wait a little while. It's a recession. Hey, houses might go on sale.
Nate Reineke (22:15)
Yeah,
it's true too.
W. Ben Utley (22:18)
Good time to buy a used car.
Nate Reineke (22:19)
Yeah. OK. Primary care doc in California. What is tax loss harvesting and is it dangerous or extreme?
W. Ben Utley (22:29)
This is a good question. This is a real question. And this is like the influenza question. You know, I'll add the top of the show about the influenza thing. So I took this call literally this morning, about 6.30 our time. And the person was very concerned that we had tax loss harvesting available, in fact, turned on in an account that we managed for them. And I'm not sure what they thought tax loss harvesting was, but I led the conversation by saying,
Nate Reineke (22:35)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (22:56)
There is no downside to tax loss harvesting. It is only upside. And they're like, really? And I said, yeah, here's how it works. Imagine that you buy a security. Let's say you bought a ⁓ stock mutual fund. Let's say that you bought the, ⁓ maybe we hear about the S &P 500 a lot. Maybe you bought the S &P 500 index. Okay. And let's say you, ⁓ you bought a hundred thousand dollars worth of that. And now it's
worth $90,000, so we had a 10 % drop from the top, right? So you have a $10,000 loss. You can sell that and harvest that capital loss, and you can use it to offset future gains, or you can use it offset up to $3,000 worth of ordinary earned income, in which case you will probably save a whopping $1,000 in permanent tax breaks, right? So it's not super valuable, not worth hiring a financial advisor for.
Nate Reineke (23:48)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (23:52)
But if you do have a financial advisor, you want to make sure they're doing this. So a hundred thousand goes to 90,000. We sell it. Now we're out of the market. Okay. So what are we going to do? Are we going to buy it back? No, we can't buy it back because of this thing known as the wash sale rules. And it says that you have a 61 day window during which you cannot buy back the same security. can't buy it back before you sold it. You can't buy it back after you bought, sold it. It would disallow your loss.
So rather than sit out of the market for 30 days, which could be disastrous, what you do is you turn around and buy a similar but not materially identical security. So for example, you might sell your S &P 500 fund and you could turn around and buy the Russell 1000 fund, which is large caps. You could turn around and buy a total market index, right? Which is all the U.S. index. You could turn around and buy international if you wanted to. It's not close to the same, not the same risk exposure.
Nate Reineke (24:24)
Mm-hmm.
W. Ben Utley (24:48)
But yeah, if you got out of the S &P 500 and you got into a broader market index, then you get to have your disallowed loss. And with any luck, it would ride back up to 100 and beyond that. And then when you sell that security in the future, you would have a gain based on that $90,000 price point. that is, yeah, that's how tax loss harvesting, the generalities of it. So what did I miss in this?
Nate Reineke (25:08)
Yeah.
Thanks.
Yeah, that's right.
W. Ben Utley (25:16)
What else is extenuating that I would need to know as a tax-offs harvesting guru?
Nate Reineke (25:20)
Well,
know, tax loss harvesting is interesting. It seems like, I would say that most of the time it seems the exact opposite of dangerous or extreme. It seems like a no-brainer, right? But I wouldn't say that it's, ⁓ it kind of is a no-brainer, Ben, but there are some nuance to this, right? You just pointed something out there. You'll have a lower basis. Okay, so.
W. Ben Utley (25:33)
Mm-hmm.
Nate Reineke (25:49)
you'll have a lower basis, which that means that when you go to sell, you'll pay more in taxes. You save some taxes, you'll pay some taxes later. ⁓ The other piece of this is let's say you weren't in SP 500 and you were in exactly the fund you wanted to be in, ⁓ you're selling your favorite fund to buy into some other fund. And hopefully that fund goes up in value so you're kind of stuck with it forever. I don't think
W. Ben Utley (25:54)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Nate Reineke (26:17)
that those are good enough reasons to not do tax loss harvesting. I wouldn't avoid tax loss harvesting because it's your favorite fund. There's a lot of really good funds out there. But it's not always a perfect thing and you probably don't need to kill yourself overdoing it if you're doing this on your own. There's some people I've met that they don't do it at all. They just keep their favorite fund.
W. Ben Utley (26:26)
Mm-hmm.
Here's what I'll say is the potentially dangerous part. It doesn't really have anything to do with tax loss harvesting unto itself. When you're tax loss harvesting, you're in there trading, right? And while you're in there, maybe we'll just load up on this. Maybe we'll tweak that. So it's the gateway to some possible bad decisions. If you have tax loss harvesting and it's automatic, or if you have a financial advisor who's doing it, I think that's good. If you're doing it yourself though,
Nate Reineke (26:49)
Yes.
you
W. Ben Utley (27:08)
You really need to do it sober and perhaps with a chaperone. So you don't wander off in the weeds.
Nate Reineke (27:12)
Yeah
Yeah, easy to do. That
is easy to do. I just spoke with, yeah. Yeah.
W. Ben Utley (27:20)
And speaking of wandering off in the weeds,
I'm segwaying to take us out, Nate. Is that okay? Okay. So speaking of wandering off in the weeds, if you tend to wander off in the weeds or perhaps you never get off in the weeds, like so much has gone on in your life that you just haven't had a chance to get to it. Or if you have buddies and friends that are in that boat, maybe they give you a little advice. So what I'd ask you to do is just...
Nate Reineke (27:26)
Let's do it. Yeah.
W. Ben Utley (27:47)
Find out if we're match or send them to our website. Go to PhysicianFamily.com. Click on Get Started. Take a little quiz there to see if we're a match. We can talk and if that works out, we can fall in love. And if not, you know, if you're not ready for that, ask us a little question. Just tiptoe into your inbox. Put in podcast at PhysicianFamily.com. Type in whatever question you got, as crazy as it may seem, and hit send and we'll answer your question and we may feature it on the
So until next time, remember, you're not just making a living, you are making a life.
